"Meaningful Combat" Is Anti-ARPG

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washimara#6336 wrote:

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SooperYay#0072 wrote:

Some people want to zone out when they play their ARPG or MMO.

In my opinion that lack of depth in the gameplay was the death of many great games, and they achieved only a fraction of what they could have in terms of success and longevity. Fortunately POE and POE2 learned from those experiences and knows better.

To pick on someone, Asmongold claiming "I want to think as little as possible" as he melts through mobs in POE faster than you can blink, on a character that probably a professional team set up for him btw... this is the Last kind of player the devs should listen to or take seriously.

After years observing how people online and offline have these very different preferences somehow, I realized the issue goes much deeper than gameplay preference.

There's Gaming, and there's just Addiction.

Gaming requires Gameplay. This means you're mentally engaged when you play, and making decisions.

Symptoms like hitting one button or one skill for hours, and victory always guaranteed for the entire campaign.. those would both be signs of addiction play, not gameplay. Games like that are only designed to milk certain types of players. It's not gameplay.

My hot take on it all.

Great comment, never thought of it that way. From my personal experience, I feel i'm addicted to gaming, even to slow one, so I can say that you can also be addicted the other way around, my certainly its more of relaxation enjoyment addiction. The addiction you speak of, is certainly of a tired person, who lost meaning, and want to brainlessly be somewhere else, and the easier the better. I have been in both places certainly, same true for mindlessly watching something, reading on the other hand is more of relaxation enjoyment, you cant really mindlessly read en enjoy, you can simplify it to comic for example.

All in all, the more complex and deep gameplay, is a sign of art, and art is something that requires time and practice to understand and open fully.

And the dark side of this way of thinking is that the museums (the Art) usually have to be financed by owners (state, city, whoever). But the mindless TV watching usually generate profit for companies who operate them. One way or another...
I'm afraid a little now...

How many of the guys who are so against fast combat in PoE 1 have actually experienced it? All I see is accounts with 0 or close to 0 achievements. True, some of them are very old, but judging by their profiles (when they don't block them, of course) they have never once experienced PoE 1 at it's fastest.

So, what do you know about PoE 1 fast gameplay and why do you want it gone? I am sorry, but I can't take people like you seriously at all. I have plenty of experience with both games, to be told that my opinion on the matter is wrong by people who never/barely played one of them rubs me the wrong way.

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

How many of the guys who are so against fast combat in PoE 1 have actually experienced it? All I see is accounts with 0 or close to 0 achievements. True, some of them are very old, but judging by their profiles (when they don't block them, of course) they have never once experienced PoE 1 at it's fastest.

So, what do you know about PoE 1 fast gameplay and why do you want it gone? I am sorry, but I can't take people like you seriously at all. I have plenty of experience with both games, to be told that my opinion on the matter is wrong by people who never/barely played one of them rubs me the wrong way.

For some reason, the voices of people who run the campaign for a week and then quit the game carry more weight than those of people who keep the game alive by creating content and playing the endgame. Even Jonathan said in one interview that he mainly plays the campaign. How is this supposed to work out well? If someone wants to park attacks, they can go try No Rest of the Wicked and let us know whether they liked it.

Current state PoE2 is still kind of zoom-zoom, you just need crazy defences to survive - and then some completely random, sometimes invisible hit out of nowhere wipes you in one shot anyway. That is not meaningful combat. Meaningful combat is when you can actually see what the enemy is doing and react to it.

I personally dislike having to memorize a huge list of mechanics (bad memory), but it would be great if bosses had more combinations and, more importantly, clearer tells: ground clues, obvious wind-ups, safe spots, when to hide, when to dodge, when to attack, etc. The problem is those mechanics cannot be punished with random one-shots, because right now there are too many maps with 0-portals (one attempt only), and you cannot really repeat a map once it is failed.

Overall I like the direction PoE2 is going. It differentiates from PoE1 and it is meant to be different - otherwise it is just another clone.

PS: ARPG is not defined in stone. Some people think it must be zoom-zoom, others think it can be more strategic. Even the "action" part is interpreted differently: for some it is pure speed/aggression, for others it is making deliberate decisions and taking action in every interaction.

I agree; sustained concentration over several hours isn't realistic for most people.

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MakaveliPT#7753 wrote:

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zepberonha#9748 wrote:

Thats just wrong, most ppl are in depth discussions, from both sides. And we also hahve some emotional ppl that dont want to argue, alsos from both sides

Tell me then how would you make it meaningful for the builds that deal 1 million damage and for the builds that deal 100 millions, because that alone makes those wet dreams impossible, how would you make it that the game is relatively (and notice how i dont even say perfectly) balanced to be meaningful for everyone, just tell me, you or anyone whining about it, im open to discuss it.

There's a lot of gameplay before you get to the million or 100 million damage, and that's where the meaningful combat should be. Sure one of those builds might get less of it, it is an arpg after all and hopefuly a sandbox in the end, but the tools are there for some skill based fighting, whenever you want it or need it or want to incorporate into build for efficiency or whatever.

And yes there are ways to make it meaningful for both even far down the road, just make it that the crap on the ground can be diminished but can't ever be totaly ignored, give mobs more special type of movement, attacks that would require some timing to screen clear etc. Ofc some solutions might require railroading and limitations, and seems to be how they try to tackle the issue for now, but even if they don't, it still ok that there is a point where you are unstoppable, click to genocide god killer.

It just doesn't have to be dumb and simplistic from the very start, just because it can't be kept meaningful all the time for all the people.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

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Oinkaments#6390 wrote:

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

Do you really want to grind hours on end rolling, dodging, parrying, being "methodical and tactical", like seriously, all that for hours and hours?

No, absolutely not. Fuck that.

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nagisanzeninzz#2697 wrote:

It boggles the mind that the meaningful combat crowd is so anti-ARPG. You come here, demand the game and genre to be something else

That's because they were lied to by the studio and they hold a grudge towards them because GGG told them it would be a different experience.

And here we are, in this polarized state, and it's going to get much worse, because apparently GGG has decided to pander to the slow pacers once again with 0.4. But it won't be enough to satisfy them, so buckle up your belt, because if they do commit to this fully, this game is going to absolute hell.

Notice how almost 20 hours and this thread doesn't even have a single reply from the "Meaningful combat" crowd.

Their silence is deafening when confronted with well crafted argument, lol.

Yes everyone stopping their Christmas celebrations or holidays, all rushing to disprove your falacious thread that is wrong in the title already heh.

Dark Souls is an arpg.

PoE 2 is nothing like Dark Souls. Bosses in the campaign have checkpoints 3 meters from them, mobs are randomized, flasks recharge on kills, game can be quickly trivialized with gear etc.

Saying it's a soulslike is like guys who were saying that 1 portal is like hardcore, because they lost an hour and a map, obviously never lost a char with all the loot, hopes and dreams heh on a single mistake.

The action part of an arpg is a scale, from numerical to skill based, PoE 2 just moves a bit on the scale towards where the soulslike are but nowhere near, it's just so you can have some fight here or there, or advance by a bit of skill when you fall behind on a power curve.

All you and the crowd do is create a strawman ("meaningful combat crowd wants dark souls"/ "GGG is making dark souls"), then you disprove it yourself ("No Rest for the Wicked is much more like proper soulslike and PoE 2 is nothing like it" "can't be done in a complex arpg" - all true), and all GGG said is that they are adding elements of Elden Ring into the formula or sth along those lines. Then you loose your mind about it, when it's all about some gameplay depth and roll in the mud first on the way to shoot genocide from the eyes, than anything related to full dark souls type combat or challenge. I play PoE 2 exactly because it's not like Dark Souls, and play Dark Souls if I want that.

Also, unlike you who plays PoE 1 while watching TV and wants 2 to degenerate into that, I appreciate PoE 1 also for its mood, sound, world, themes and places. If 2 is made into 1, then 1 might be dropped, since the play while watch netflix autobattler crowd doesn't seem to care that much, as long as the drop sound is heard enough. I don't want that, I want PoE 1 to thrive, grow and shine.

Why do you even care btw if you still have PoE 1 intact and watch TV while playing it, do you even notice the graphics that much, why do you have that need to have 2 changed to your liking, idk.

Main issue is right here

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Overall I like the direction PoE2 is going. It differentiates from PoE1 and it is meant to be different - otherwise it is just another clone.

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Why do you even care btw if you still have PoE 1 intact and watch TV while playing it, do you even notice the graphics that much, why do you have that need to have 2 changed to your liking, idk.

PoE 1 will not be around forever. Realistically, a time will come when only PoE 2 will exist and be supported. Unless GGG want to create another spin-off but this time make it more like PoE 1, all of us who enjoy the first game but can't stand the second will eventually be left with nothing. This is why there will be a constant major pushback against whatever DS/ER clone PoE 2 wants to become. And this is why GGG will ultimately lose customers if they commit to it.

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Johny_Snow#4778 wrote:

This is why there will be a constant major pushback against whatever DS/ER clone PoE 2 wants to become. And this is why GGG will ultimately lose customers if they commit to it.

But they also lose customers if they make PoE 1 clone. The question is which camp is bigger.

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DiabloImmoral#7632 wrote:

"Meaningful combat" can be relegated to dodging in uber fights. It has no other place in a farm simulator looter shooter ARPG. Nobody wants "meaningful combat" except no-lifers and RMTers who can giga overgear the content quickly to monopolize segments of the economy.

I think GGG should have a separate SSF "story mode" with a difficulty slider + achievements associated with it so that people can prove their mettle without ruining the game for everyone else. After completing the story mode players can migrate their characters to normal trade leagues. The story mode will keep a permanent record of which skills you used on each boss so you can't claim you played "off-meta" and your profile will publicly display your campaign clear time.

Easy (normal)
Hard
Very Hard
Exile

Don't have all the SSFHC Exile mode achievements completed on an off-meta character in a reasonable amount of time? Opinion into the trash can. It would give streamers years worth of content and a competitive framework for the game each league. Think about it GGG.

Its a game not the gaming Olympics. I don't give a shit if streamers have "years of content" to work with.

Nobody cares if you have achievments or have completed content with certain skills or whatever you are talking about.

Most of the people that play this game could achieve the same level of play if not better than most of your Streamers if they decided to sit down and spend the same amount of time in game. They choose not too because it is a game that is for there entertainment, not a competition.

You are way off base on judging people by what they have achieved in game because all that is required to do this is time. And its a choice as to whether players spend that time to complete these things or not. Remember games are a luxury not a fucking requirement of life.