Is PoE2 even PoE?

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eperon#3129 wrote:

Many of you already know this (and might have possibly mentioned it, I didn't read all comments here), but for those that don't, I thought that a look back at where it all started might be beneficial to this discussion.

Almost 13 years ago (January 2013), 0.10.0, the open beta for PoE 1 was released. If you look at some of the gameplay footage from back then (random example from ZiggyD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfuq_JlGYUA), you will notice that the game played quite a bit differently compared to modern PoE. It almost looks like "meaningful combat" - players dealt less damage and had less aoe, even some of the white mobs were hard to one shot. If the graphics weren't this outdated, you might actually think that this was footage from PoE 2's campaign.

Every time I play through the campaign of PoE 2, I can't help but be reminded of PoE 1's early days. It's a bit unfortunate that PoE 2 tried to ramp up it's endgame to PoE 1 levels so early in it's dev cycle - we all got so used to blasting through the campaign and most of the endgame in PoE 1 that GGG probably felt the need to scale PoE 2's endgame to comparable levels from the get go.

I hope that the changes to pack size in endgame for 0.4 and whatever is in store for 0.5 in April will help to properly define PoE 2's endgame identity.

Be patient with the game, there is no reason to get angry at the devs or other players who might prefer other playstyles than your own. Look at PoE 1, where it came from and how it got to where it is now and allow PoE 2 to take it's own journey, it's far from done!

I agree with most of what this man said, I actually liked closed beta poe than I do poe in its current state. It felt like a game, one that punished mistakes. It turned into (I push button, screen dies). Which gets boring... leave the casual play to d4.

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rob_korn#1745 wrote:

Listen, because I think you got me wrong. I'm not trying to argue with you regarding what PoE2 was, is, will be. I'm catching you on your hyperboles, that end up just being wrong.
You cannot say that PoE2 was ALLWAYS meant to be a different game (see what I did here ? that's why I started replying to you) because it's just not true. Even GGG didn't clearly know initially (and arguably still don't know now lol).

They don't want PoE2 to be slow intrinsically.

They NEED it to start slow, to give room for future content. That's it. And a lot of people talking so much about how slow PoE2 is better are in for a bad surprise overtime for that reason. It's only a matter of when, not if.

Dude....come on. Third try and still not quoting me or the video correctly. CW literally says in the video "Later today, in Jonathan's gameplay reveal". It is an entirely separate event at that particular exilecon where they go DEEPER in depth than the level 11 area being shown.

And you conveniently AGAIN ignored everything being SAID while watching that level 11 area gameplay.

They literally state for all to hear it: they want PoE 2 to be SLOW, more impactful, bigger and longer bosses, less PoE 1 blast everything on screen all at once. They SAY all that!!! They absolutely ABSOLUTELY want it to be intrinsically slower. Whether you think that is "right" design or not, that is what THEY the developers are literally telling you in multiple ways in 2019. At the very first reveal of PoE 2's existence. The beginning. The foundation. The vision for the game.

It was ALWAYS (not hyperbole, literally their design) meant to be different. The only thing debatable is the approach and how successful they were.

The developers knew EXACTLY what they wanted from the game, and told us as such over and over again whenever PoE 2 was being discussed. The "success" of reaching their vision is the only thing in doubt, which is why I stated a few pages earlier that the actual PROBLEM is that PoE 2 is becoming too close to PoE 1, and not the other way around. Based on the DEVELOPER'S stated plans for the game from 2019 until now.

Slower. Methodical. Meaningful and long bosses. Combo skills. Tactical play. Etc. It was all there from the VERY beginning. Very un-2019-PoE1 descriptions.


You are going to lose this argument because we have videos, interviews, and basically everything already quoted and linked in this thread showing that what you are saying is just wrong. Because you want to "gacha" me on hyperbole....when it ISN'T hyperbole. It's the ground plan.

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

They pulled a reverse Overwatch 2 and seriously? That's the good ending

PoE2 is not Elden Ring. It's failed project, and should be scraped.
GGG can enhance visuals in PoE1 using PoE2 assets and that's it.
Ppl don't ask for ruthless slow permanent mode gameplay or ask for combo gameplay at all.

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

They pulled a reverse Overwatch 2 and seriously? That's the good ending

Everyone can "go back on their word" in development, because even my neighbor's dead cat knows that shit happens and plans change.

But when you have/choose to go back on your word, be clear about it, be transparent about it and don't leave your consumers/costumers "hanging", hoping for something that will never happen. And don't let them (economically) support an idea for almost two years before telling them that the idea will never happen.

I don't think people in this thread are unreasonable; most of them just want answers to a few VERY simple questions. A few examples:

- Do you have any permanent, long-term plans for PoE1 beyond the next league?
- Will PoE1 ever receive anything close to the graphical and mechanical improvements "promised" in what was once called "4.0"?
- Will PoE1 ever reach a "4.0" state, or is 3.xx the future of PoE1?

Do you actually think that those questions are unreasonable? Do you think "don't know, we'll see" is a fair answer to any of those? As I said before; I would take and accept a "no". It's more than fair that a developer (more or less) abandons one game to focus on another. Just... And in danger of repeating myself here; be transparent.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

That's a pretty bleak view on it. It's okay to have a change of plans, but that doesn't mean you get a freebie on not implementing something that was promised while still doing the other thing, while ALSO still raking in the money we thought (for years) was going towards PoE 1 improvements. If they would at least update the graphics, add the new model rigging and give us the promised gem system rework, I'd be okay with that, but we can't have that because it'd be directly competing with their new favorite child.

I realize that none of the above is an easy ask, but for fuck's sake, it's been over 6 years.

Firstly, you don't get to decide what GGG spends money on. Your reason for supporting them then may have been the idea of "2 campaigns in 1 game", and you have voiced your grievance over that ever since they pivoted from that idea. However, while you describe that as "holding them accountable", there's a line where criticism turns into perpetual punishment.

1) Proportionality: this is subjective of course and while I don't fault them for reevaluating the initial goal, you are of course allowed to feel differently
2) Relevance: is there still a path of 2 campaigns in one game? Hardly. I don't recall them promising something they haven't followed up on since, and unless you can point to a specific promise not connected to PoE2, I don't see it being relevant anymore
3) Opportunity for growth: what further learning or restitution is there even? See relevance
4) Timeframe: as you say, it's been years. A reasonable person acknowledges that people can change, and while initially it was justified, it is now years later and you are still singing the same tune

This "mistake" is now used endlessly to justify further criticism at every step of the way, only feeding into the negativity further. To me it sounds like you are trapped in the past while the game moves forward. You gotta break the cycle, Baumi. Let it go lmao.

That tidbit aside, GGG is still pumping money into the development of PoE1 and besides new league content, we have new skill and support gems, uniques, more quality of life changes than we had during the Chris Wilson era, et al.

Call my observation bleak, but look at the modern gaming landscape. The reality is that in the era of live service games, the idea of a roadmap is a cool idea. Builds trust and transparency. Good stuff! But fluke a timeline, or don't meet a goal, and it becomes a source of frustration and ridicule.

Once a company publishes their goal (because we as a community DEMAND open communication and transparency, it's so important to us!), those goals are treated as promises. And if a company doesn't meet those goals, it becomes a betrayal, and people react sourly and with condemnation.

It's just not a smart strategy.

Transparency is a paradox. The more transparent a studio tries to be, the more ammunition their critics have when things don't go as planned.

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BaumisMagicalWorld#0673 wrote:

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ArtCrusade#4438 wrote:

Game development is a scary thing in these days. Reading some comments, I can honestly understand why developers are hesistant to release roadmaps. You can't go back on your word, ever, no matter if you realise later that an idea just doesn't work out or is too much work.

That's a pretty bleak view on it. It's okay to have a change of plans, but that doesn't mean you get a freebie on not implementing something that was promised while still doing the other thing, while ALSO still raking in the money we thought (for years) was going towards PoE 1 improvements. If they would at least update the graphics, add the new model rigging and give us the promised gem system rework, I'd be okay with that, but we can't have that because it'd be directly competing with their new favorite child.

I realize that none of the above is an easy ask, but for fuck's sake, it's been over 6 years.

It’s not about ignoring promises. The idea of PoE2 acting as an overhaul for PoE1 looked good on paper, but once the systems were actually built it became obvious that putting them into PoE1 would turn the game into something completely different. That is not an update, that is a replacement.

The PoE2 gem system is the clearest example. Dropping it into PoE1 would create the largest power spike the game has ever seen. It would not just upset balance, it would blow it apart. Every skill, support, item, ascendancy, and boss encounter would need to be reworked from the ground up. At that point we are not improving PoE1 anymore, we are simply making the game worse.

Even without the PoE2 gem system, balance is already a challenge, and the devs are constantly playing catch-up. Adding one massive gem change that would implode the entire system just because it was promised years ago is obviously not the priority. It is almost funny to watch newer players get upset over this. They cannot imagine the game without it and assume it should happen instantly.

The pace at which MTX are ported into PoE2 is a perfect illustration of how difficult these updates actually are. This is not something done in a few days or weeks. If the team were entirely focused on overhauling PoE1’s graphics, rigs, and animations to match PoE2, league content would start falling behind immediately. Anyone who has been around longer than Affliction League can see how much work this actually requires.

Over the past decade, a lot has changed in PoE in positive ways. Graphics used to be noticeably worse. The old models and effects looked flat and dated, but over the years the game has gradually improved. Performance, effects, and animations have been upgraded, and while it is not PoE2-level graphics, the game looks decent enough that a total overhaul is not really necessary. Expecting it to happen quickly is unrealistic, especially given the short timeframes players tend to assume.

Changes over the years tend to go unnoticed by newer players. Because Affliction League is where some first started, it is treated as if the game has always been in that state, ignoring the steady evolution from the initial release up to that point.

Imagine the uproar if PoE2’s systems had been forced into PoE1. Not because PoE2 is bad, but because it plays differently enough that replacing PoE1 overnight would have caused chaos. Personally, I am happy both games exist. It gives players options. Those who do not like PoE2 can stick to PoE1, and vice versa. Those who enjoy both have a better bridge between the fresh excitement of a new league and the slower periods of an empty one.

PoE2 was never prioritized over PoE1. The developers simply refused to erase PoE1 and turn it into a completely different game, avoiding a total balance disaster for the sake of a feature that only seems simple to those who have not seen how much work it would actually require.

The only point I was trying to make is that, DESPITE the line "2 campaigns, 1 game"......the logic wasn't there from the start. For anyone with a critical brain on their shoulders. Their intent with PoE 2 from the start in 2019 was a LOT of changes.

Logically, what would that require if they held true to "1 game"? One game or the other or BOTH would need to drastically change to "fit". But no matter what, there would be MASSIVE change. You cannot drop a completely different game into another, and just expect everything to suddenly mesh together in a shared endgame. Imagine playing Diablo 2 characters in and alongside Diablo 3 characters in Greater Rifts....

This wasn't a secret....so holding this "2 campaigns, 1 game" line against them for 6 freaking years is ridiculous. We already received the BEST POSSIBLE answer to that question in the splitting of the games. Same PoE 1 that folks have grown to love and the NEW PoE 2 that folks should have expected.

The issues that remain in both are an entirely SEPARATE argument to be made, for each game uniquely. That would no longer be any connection to the "Is PoE 2 even PoE (1)" argument of this thread.



As for those "simple questions" that were brought up.....those have been answered multiple times by the developers since 2023 starting with the announcement of the separated games. Whether you believe them or not is on you, but your disagreement doesn't signal that those questions WEREN'T already answered. They have claimed they will continue developing both games simultaneously, releasing new content for both. Presumably 4.0 will come when they do a MAJOR expansion, like what sparked 3.0 in the first place. And if it doesn't then we just continue on the same path with the last 8 years of PoE history.

This idea that the developers are "required" to tell you that, or anything, is laughable. Especially considering....they already did. Developers don't have to tell us anything. Ever. And yet, they are exceedingly transparent by comparison for a game company.

What's the point in the developers telling us anything if the loud people with issues don't even listen to the answers? How many interviews have the developers done? How many content reveals? How many "plans for the future" posts? Because there have been a TON of all of these.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Because you want to "gacha" me

You know, when I give you a link of CW saying the opposite, it's not gatcha, it's just confronting. If you say something incorrect, it's not gatcha to say it's incorrect :)

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It is an entirely separate event at that particular exilecon where they go DEEPER in depth than the level 11 area being shown.

Maybe, prove it, link ? Considering at that 2019 event they only had that act 1 sketch, I wonder what you will show us to see. And I'm saying to see, not what you say without anything backing it up.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

They SAY all that!!! They absolutely ABSOLUTELY want it to be intrinsically slower.

Link plz ?

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And you conveniently AGAIN ignored everything being SAID while watching that level 11 area gameplay.

I'm not ignoring, quite the opposite, I say what you say makes no sense because what you show is a level 11 gameplay, talking about things like aura power.

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They literally state for all to hear it: they want PoE 2 to be SLOW

Meanwhile, CW :
I'm not saying we're trying to achieve a slower Pace
but it's not going to be slow

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The developers knew EXACTLY what they wanted from the game

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You are going to lose this argument because we have videos

Yes, they wanted to scale everything down to bring room for expansions, because PoE1 went out of control because of 10 years incrementals.

I am not arguing with you, I have nothing to lose over. I am showing you. I'm not pretending they said A or B the way you do, I'm showing you. I answer you with links and transcrips :

ExileCon 2023, Jonathan :
Will PoE2 be much slower than PoE1 ?
"It’s not the goal to make it slower"
"it's likely that the 95th percentile of speed will be a bit slower"

Mark :
what do we actually want to bring down
"that is what we had to do because of where the numbers have gotten to."
"bringing both scales down doesn't mean everything's much slower"
"it certainly allows us to then have more room to add more pinnacle bosses with more life over another ten years of content."

Reminder of what I wrote before, just to be sure how closely it matches :

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A live game needs increments, so you always reach a point where the speed gets out of control. They don't want PoE2 to be slow intrinsically.
They NEED it to start slow, to give room for future content. That's it. And a lot of people talking so much about how slow PoE2 is better are in for a bad surprise overtime for that reason. It's only a matter of when, not if.

Yup.

Didn't expect Baumi to outright admit he's indeed not "holding them to account" but instead holding a grudge. One comes from a point of genuinely wanting things to improve (and thus stopping when appropriate), the other is, well... not. And that's exactly why I proposed to let it go already, because those harboring those feelings further only hurts yourself.