Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

Your OP isn’t a design proposal. It’s a vapid wishlist. It lists outcomes you prefer without demonstrating any understanding of how the systems in PoE2 actually function.It reads like armchair design with none of the mechanical groundwork.

Every attempt to push the conversation toward concrete systems is met with the same pattern: ad hominem about “bad faith,” accusations about motive, and strawmen about being asked to reproduce internal GGG documentation. None of that replaces the missing work. You were asked to justify a single mechanical loop under your proposed framework. You still haven’t done it.

If you want to argue for structural changes, you need to show you understand the structures. You haven’t. You’ve presented preferences and defended them with deflection instead of mechanics.

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

Your OP isn’t a design proposal. It’s a vapid wishlist. It lists outcomes you prefer without demonstrating any understanding of how the systems in PoE2 actually function.It reads like armchair design with none of the mechanical groundwork.

Every attempt to push the conversation toward concrete systems is met with the same pattern: ad hominem about “bad faith,” accusations about motive, and strawmen about being asked to reproduce internal GGG documentation. None of that replaces the missing work. You were asked to justify a single mechanical loop under your proposed framework. You still haven’t done it.

If you want to argue for structural changes, you need to show you understand the structures. You haven’t. You’ve presented preferences and defended them with deflection instead of mechanics.

Well I'd love to talk about them with you, but you never seem to want that discussion. Instead you want to talk about this, so okay here we go.

I do point bad-faith arguments and logical fallacies out every time it happens. I'm very stubborn that way. Hey look, you identified one of mine in a strawman about reproducing internal data. Okay, then if that isn't what you want, what would you like to know? That will save us some time, if you could be specific about that for me.

My post may not have been comprehensive enough in describing system interactions for you. But at least I've talked about them. Which I'm going to need you to do also, so that we can finally have a discussion about it. Perhaps if we get that far, we can rub some sticks together in this discussion. What do you say?

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BlastYa#4875 wrote:

I dont believe it is that easy and fun is very subjectiv.

For some people the fun is to have very high DPS and see them character clear the screen in a second. Just for the satisfaction of being powerfull. I do believe some people would still play "zoom" build even without better loot.

Some people find them fun into being virtualy rich and race league start with the most effectiv build to reach that goal. They might swap later to crafting if it is the best method to reach that goal also. Because them fun, the satisfaction they find, is being rich.

Some people find fun to play very weird build even if thoose arent as effectiv. Just for the satisfaction to make a weird combination work after all.

Some people find fun in fighting monsters, not carring as much of the build or the loot but finding satisfaction in the combat, movement and interaction with the game.

This last exemple is where i place myself personaly and maybe you also if i understand correctly. That doesnt mean the others arent having fun because them fun is different. I loose interest when i can clear the whole screen on sight while some others would loose interest if they were playing like me. Because they enjoy it differently.

People who get the fun out of being rich are more the target of your post i would say. And i think it shouldnt be a problem if it's what make them enjoying them time in the game. Now you have to be extremely efficient and have a lot of time for that goal and it feel unfair for a lot of people participating in the economy.

The only concern is more the danger of RMT or gambling addiction but that exist in every online game with an economy and is not related to a gameplay style zoom or not. I believe the game industry doesnt have much solution for it since not every RMTer is botting.

Again, i'm pretty sure a lot of zoomer would give up rarity affixes for more DPS just to clear the screen 0.1 second faster. That's why i think your reasoning is incorrect in saying "It's not fun and they all do it for the loot".

Flaunt their wealth ，all of your answers were right,

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allanballan6ix9ine#1114 wrote:

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

I've made a lot of edits to the original post so that people entering the conversation will have more context and less ambiguity. I'll continue adding more to it, in the hopes that this discussion will continue.

excellent edit! thank you for putting in the time with this thread. i believe the gameplay aspect of poe2 is the number one "problem" they need to solve before 1.0 to set the correct tone for the game going forward and my cope is that all the negative elements that have emerged during EA where all accidental and/or the result of time constraints, not intentionally designed.

source of hope: the game-director (Jonathan Rogers) has mention several times in interviews that he doesn't play poe1 anymore because he dislikes the way poe1 plays and that his goal with poe2 is to make the greatest arpg ever made (in his mind poe1 is not that).

source of doubt: the game-director has also stated that they will keep changing the game until the community is "happy" and oh boy is this a problem for "our camp", why? (trigger warning, not fact, my pov) because the player base consists mainly of lazy, dumb and mechanically unskilled players (including streamers, excluding speed runners and hardcore players).

potential solution: what i've been able to piece together from SoColdO_O#1989's rants is that a system for all kinds of players kinda' exists in poe1 in the form of map tiers and scarabs so why not just work with that until they come up with something better (if there even is something).

I read you when you posted and meant to respond, sorry about that.
Feedback like yours is greatly appreciated, and helps me to want to continue the discussion. I'm putting a video together to better explain the concepts in this post, with visual illustrations which hopefully will make it easier to digest. I can go into some more depth there.

I agree with you on the gameplay being the #1 problem. I'm sure the issues of performance, and additional content like crafting and league mechanics will naturally develop as time goes on. I'm less confident about the direction the game will go in terms of gameplay, which is why I wanted to make this post to talk about it.

There has been a lot of controversy in EA so far, and a lot of disagreement about what was in fact good or bad, and about the direction the game is headed, but I consider that par for the course. As the game develops, there's going to be plenty of friction with the community, regardless of what they do. I'm sure you're right, that some aspects of the game which fell short were due to time constraints. I'm not too worried about that; the pacing. As long as they are aimed in the right direction with the overall vision of the game.

Jonathan did talk about a different image for the game, and I hope he stays with it. I don't blame him for developing doubts, because in the early phase of EA the discontented voices, however few, were the loudest. The developer's perceptions will be colored by the disproportionate representation of those who were upset with the direction of the game, while those who were content and patient, usually just remained silent.

I think it would be a good idea for GGG to put a poll feature in the game, to ask the players specific questions about the game and to help give them a more accurate impression about the thoughts of the community.

That's why it's important to put your opinion into the ring. Don't let people put you down, because the decision will not be up to them. It will be up to the people who take your opinion into account when they work on the game.

I won't be going anywhere, and we can keep having these discussions. =)
I appreciate you. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

Dev game direction choices are informed by metrics and analytics, they are NOT based on who whines loudest on the forums.

Forum feedback is a third tier source and requires a ton of filtering to gain anything of value out of it. Forum warriors waging combat to push their view to the top are simply delusional.

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

Dev game direction choices are informed by metrics and analytics, they are NOT based on who whines loudest on the forums.

Forum feedback is a third tier source and requires a ton of filtering to gain anything of value out of it. Forum warriors waging combat to push their view to the top are simply delusional.

That is why this post discusses why metrics are unreliable, and why they should implement a polling system in the game.

If forum posts do not matter, you can relax.

You don't really think things through eh. An in game polling feature, in a FTP game. Just asking for someone to spin up 5k bot accounts and push it whichever way they want.

Complete waste of time and resources.

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cyranis#7939 wrote:

You don't really think things through eh. An in game polling feature, in a FTP game. Just asking for someone to spin up 5k bot accounts and push it whichever way they want.

Complete waste of time and resources.

You would only gather poll data from accounts based on their longevity and character progression. The class metrics would share the same botting issue otherwise.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

787prada - Why you can't have fun in PoE2
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BHrdRJY6j2o

Added to the OP.

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ryuukk33#4998 wrote:

Besides, most keybinds in PoE aren't even used for fighitng, they're for generating charges, casting buffs, or triggering payoff effects, well, one could argue they are, but it feels weird since they are a requirement for most skills

When you're in the moment of action, you don't want your rotation cluttered with these extra tasks, it becomes tedious and draining

The game needs more skills with builtin combo chains that blend with other skills, so we can have rich combat with minimal keybinds

But that requires a different combat engine, the current one was inherited from PoE 1 after 10 years of bloat and power creep, good luck

That's an interesting idea. And it's good to hear from another person thinking about ergonomics.

A word you used there was 'rotation'. That's something I mentioned as undesirable for interesting combat. What I am more concerned with, are 'situational options', not skills that are decided to be used one after the other in a rotation, because all that does is turn the concept of thoughtless one-button play, to thoughtless multi-button play.

What I'm really looking for here, is not about increasing button presses, but increasing considerations during combat, and having a choice in skills for how to respond, rather than repeat a 3 skill sequence.

This might be a strange example but bear with me. In Super Mario, you really only get one primary button; jump. (ignore run) But the reason it's a classic, is because the game present innumerable situations that you have to figure out and deal with. So it becomes less about the fact that you are only dealing with a single button, and more about how and when you use it.

Contrast that with PoE. You might have one, or several skills at your disposal. But if the situation is invariably "clear the screen", the game does not present you with very many interesting scenarios for you to navigate and find solutions to with your skill repertoire.

I hope that makes sense.