Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

"

WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

You brought up some great points in your last post.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'd like to hear more of it, because it sounds like we're on the same page, and it's rare to get into the 'minutia' of something like this.

Thank you, I've made quite a few feedback posts in the past related to this subject, I think these three could be most useful to read:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3709985
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3746675
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3826991

While I'm here, I also want to leave the link to the video where Mark mentioned what their vision for the bosses was, that I've mentioned in my previous post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UehsEJCfuns

As well as the old showcase video for Druid, since that will become very relevant soon. (in fact, you can check recent comments to see how -some- players have played a big part in the current outcome as well, not just GGG)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buc4-NTomSU

Oh and... this video is perfect to show how visual clarity is impossible in the current state of the game and is simply incompatible with zoom zoom overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcfqgWvzaBk

Zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom zoom.....
The very easy clicks made the game worse than Tetris.

"

IonSugeRau1#1069 wrote:

"

WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

You brought up some great points in your last post.
Thanks for sharing your perspective. I'd like to hear more of it, because it sounds like we're on the same page, and it's rare to get into the 'minutia' of something like this.

Thank you, I've made quite a few feedback posts in the past related to this subject, I think these three could be most useful to read:

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3709985
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3746675
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3826991

While I'm here, I also want to leave the link to the video where Mark mentioned what their vision for the bosses was, that I've mentioned in my previous post:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UehsEJCfuns

As well as the old showcase video for Druid, since that will become very relevant soon. (in fact, you can check recent comments to see how -some- players have played a big part in the current outcome as well, not just GGG)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buc4-NTomSU

Oh and... this video is perfect to show how visual clarity is impossible in the current state of the game and is simply incompatible with zoom zoom overall.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcfqgWvzaBk

Oh great threads. And I see you made them a while back.
I'm reading over them now, and agree with what you're saying in them.

They are related. I've added references to them in the OP, so people can find them.

I haven't mentioned it here, but I strongly share your opinion about exponential scaling and damage multipliers in support gems. It seems that once someone is aware of the core problems, they cascade to the same related problems and critiques.

Great stuff man. I'll be looking those over.
I've already seen those video clips, but they're good to have here for reference.

"

WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

What a wall of text to miss a critically important issue:
ERGONOMICS.

Ah yes, the issue of, "but I don't want to press more buttons".
A critical oversight.

Well, you've introduced a perspective which I don't believe has been brought up here yet. And it has now been added to the wall of text. So let's take a look.

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

Simply, we only have so many keybinds we can comfortably use, and taking different actions may also be gated by our character's attributes.

For instance, I played Corrupting Fever Elementalist as a league starter, a choice which I will never make again. And chief among them is ergonomics. Why?

Because I have so many buttons to press.

---

What this post doesn't touch on is that even a "zoom zoom" build can easily ramp up in the number of buttons it needs to press depending on how much of a tradeoff someone wants to make for power.

So what it sounds like to me, is that you aren't taking issue with the broader topic, which is about AoE clear speeds. But with the percieved lack of concern for having to use more buttons.

The issue raised in the OP is not with the number of button presses specifically, although having one primary skill which does your clear is a pretty common and ubiquitously accepted theme of zoom play-style.

Rather, it's about the speed that monsters are deleted off the screen. I believe that having a diverse range of skills is something that is complementary to attrition/engaging combat, but not necessitated by it.

So in principle, using whatever number of buttons you are accustomed to and prefer is not being contested, nor is it particularly relevant.

You take issue with 'zoom' being equated to single button presses, that's alright. Even if, I think there is a very strong relationship there. There is no call for a mandate here to increase button usage.

Looking at this from a different vector, it is a peculiar argument due to its implications. "The fewer buttons I have to press, the better the game". I am imagining now, someone who plays Mortal Kombat arguing for the use of a single button to achieve optimal game-play. Peculiar.

But "PoE isn't Mortal Kombat". And the history of Arpgs have never implemented a utilization a selection of skills before.

Sorry but, while this topic is, sort of, important? I don't think it's super relevant. If you already use a lot of buttons in your zoom build, this isn't a call to increase them. It's espousing a game-play style which would complement diverse skill usage.

It's hard to imagine a life without "zoom" and what that repetition does to our wrists. I suggest good wrist support.

I agree fighting games can be fun because of pressing lots of different buttons. However, PoE is a bit clunkier than that because so many different skills have various startup times, cast ranges, etc.

If the game is going to punish pressing more buttons, why should we want to press more buttons?

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

I agree fighting games can be fun because of pressing lots of different buttons. However, PoE is a bit clunkier than that because so many different skills have various startup times, cast ranges, etc.

Let me reiterate, and be succinct for clarity:
The post isn't advocating for more button presses.

It is, however, allowing new build ideas that utilize different skills in different situations. If those skills aren't wanted, then you don't have to use them.

It is also not an implicit endorsement of "skill cycling" for the sake of executing a predefined and repetitive task for the sake of 'combos', which would only serve to take the current situation of spamming one button, and turning it into cycle spamming a sequence of buttons.

Rather, it's opening up opportunities to organically create your own skill combinations, and use them out of order, as the situation calls for.

Want to use only lightning arrow? Perfectly fine. But it might be beneficial to use other skills depending on the situation.

I can't say I've really heard such direct and explicit advocacy for simplifying combat down to button minimization before, at the expense of all other considerations.

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

If the game is going to punish pressing more buttons, why should we want to press more buttons?

Loaded question friend.
We want to reward the selection process for situational skill use, not punish it. If it were punishing, then the incentive would be to use a single skill, and the problem resolves itself in favor of single skill use. But the objective, is to make it rewarding.

"

WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

I agree fighting games can be fun because of pressing lots of different buttons. However, PoE is a bit clunkier than that because so many different skills have various startup times, cast ranges, etc.

Let me reiterate, and be succinct for clarity:
The post isn't advocating for more button presses.

It is, however, allowing new build ideas that utilize different skills in different situations. If those skills aren't wanted, then you don't have to use them.

It is also not an implicit endorsement of "skill cycling" for the sake of executing a predefined and repetitive task for the sake of 'combos', which would only serve to take the current situation of spamming one button, and turning it into cycle spamming a sequence of buttons.

Rather, it's opening up opportunities to organically create your own skill combinations, and use them out of order, as the situation calls for.

Want to use only lightning arrow? Perfectly fine. But it might be beneficial to use other skills depending on the situation.

I can't say I've really heard such direct and explicit advocacy for simplifying combat down to button minimization before, at the expense of all other considerations.

"

IlyaK1986#4225 wrote:

If the game is going to punish pressing more buttons, why should we want to press more buttons?

Loaded question friend.
We want to reward the selection process for situational skill use, not punish it. If it were punishing, then the incentive would be to use a single skill, and the problem resolves itself in favor of single skill use. But the objective, is to make it rewarding.

In most fighting games 2 buttons give you 4+ combos

In PoE however, executing 4 combos requires 4 distinct skills, and therefore 4 separate keybinds

This is one of the core issues that makes multi skill builds feel clunky

As someone mentioned, "ergonomics" issue, and i think that's spot on

Besides, most keybinds in PoE aren't even used for fighitng, they're for generating charges, casting buffs, or triggering payoff effects, well, one could argue they are, but it feels weird since they are a requirement for most skills

When you're in the moment of action, you don't want your rotation cluttered with these extra tasks, it becomes tedious and draining

The game needs more skills with builtin combo chains that blend with other skills, so we can have rich combat with minimal keybinds

But that requires a different combat engine, the current one was inherited from PoE 1 after 10 years of bloat and power creep, good luck

Skill spamming has always been part of ARPGs and RPGs in general. You do not really remove it without changing the genre.

There is a line between demanding, high input combos and simpler setups that are easier to execute. Right now PoE2 feels clearly weighted toward the simpler side that is still highly rewarding.

Humans will always optimize for least effort, highest output. PoE2 leans into that. I am playing a pure minion build, I mostly move and let minions handle combat. They are not meta, but they are good enough, and the game allows that kind of low input play.

If minions had to be constantly recast, I would probably still play them, because I like that archetype. Same thing in PoE1 with SRS.

On the single skill spam issue, I agree. Most builds are basically one main skill plus movement and a couple of utilities. The game lacks depth in that sense.

How to fix it is not obvious. Heavy cooldown systems would push it too far toward MMORPG design, and I do not think that is what PoE2 should be aiming for.

Excellent post people don't seem to understand the simplicity of it.

From my perspective...
If you're running things for clear speed and efficiency, you're performing a job or chore. You got your wires crossed and should be putting this to when you're working. Its more akin to addiction then enjoyment of leasure.

Why do you think this section of the player base is more hostile and defensive? Have you ever tried explaining to an addict their lifestyle is not healthy? Its virtually the same exact reaction.

The other alternative is copy/paste and auto-pilot personalities that like to just zone out and be told what to do. They copy the meta and basically just want to not think. And I can respect that, some people are just so burnt out with their lives to them that is relaxing. Not gonna condemn people who need to mentally detox from a hard day.

But for the most part you're dealing with addicts not people playing a game for enjoyment. They will always be at odds with those who do things for the sake of happiness vs. clear speed.

"

TheVoyant#3002 wrote:

Excellent post people don't seem to understand the simplicity of it.

From my perspective...
If you're running things for clear speed and efficiency, you're performing a job or chore. You got your wires crossed and should be putting this to when you're working. Its more akin to addiction then enjoyment of leasure.

Why do you think this section of the player base is more hostile and defensive? Have you ever tried explaining to an addict their lifestyle is not healthy? Its virtually the same exact reaction.

The other alternative is copy/paste and auto-pilot personalities that like to just zone out and be told what to do. They copy the meta and basically just want to not think. And I can respect that, some people are just so burnt out with their lives to them that is relaxing. Not gonna condemn people who need to mentally detox from a hard day.

But for the most part you're dealing with addicts not people playing a game for enjoyment. They will always be at odds with those who do things for the sake of happiness vs. clear speed.

Thanks for your input. I appreciate it. =D
I think that's a very astute comparison; the addition aspect of grinding for loot.

But if there's just one thing I'd like to get across on this point, it's to draw attention to the distinction between:

1 - Talking about the addiction/fomo aspect in order to highlight causes for the current zoom-clear meta. &

2 - Recognizing that it is also okay for there to be elements in the game which are addictive.

At a glance, they can seem like two polar contradictory statements. But it wasn't my intention to disparage people for the fun they have "chasing their next loot hit". Only to explain why zoom-clear has become the meta; by the players-base choosing the results of the item chase over the intrinsic fun of the process. And to suggest that the 'chase' can still exist with a better meta.

I think some elements of the game which are addictive can be part of the fun, so long as they are not manipulating the player into unhealthy habits that extend outside the game.

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TheVoyant#3002 wrote:

Why do you think this section of the player base is more hostile and defensive?

I have noticed this. I try to keep in mind that everyone is going to experience more friction with people who disagree with them. But that said, I can't help but notice this pattern when I observe two strangers having a discussion on this topic. There are probably some, "associative traits" there, perhaps. But we risk getting into nasty ad hominem territory, so I'll just leave it at that.
*sweat emoji*

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

Skill spamming has always been part of ARPGs and RPGs in general.

There have in fact been cooldowns or other soft-caps for powerful skills going way back in arpg history, and in PoE1 and PoE2. In PoE1, there are vaal skills, but many other basic skill gems have cooldowns also. PoE2 has cooldowns, and supports which add or extend cooldowns. So I'm not sure we're off to a great start here.

But even if that were accurate, it wouldn't matter, because it's an appeal to tradition. Games do not stay stagnant, they evolve and experiment. Something that PoE in particular is known for.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

You do not really remove it without changing the genre.

Is also an implied 'no true Scotsman fallacy' =\

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

There is a line between demanding, high input combos and simpler setups that are easier to execute. Right now PoE2 feels clearly weighted toward the simpler side that is still highly rewarding.

Okay so I'm not actually explicitly advocating for combos, but for diversare range of skills that can be used in different situations.

Although I'm not against 'combos' either, but we have to be clear about what that means. If combos took a form of 'skill cycling' which I consider to be just a more tedious reproduction of the one-button play style, then I'm not really in favor of that. I am, however, in favor of skills that can play off of each other in interesting and organic ways, which aren't rigidly attached together in a predefined chain, but can be used individually or reordered depending on the situation.

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

Humans will always optimize for least effort, highest output. PoE2 leans into that. I am playing a pure minion build, I mostly move and let minions handle combat. They are not meta, but they are good enough, and the game allows that kind of low input play.

This was exactly the point of the original post. That people have a proclivity toward the easiest means to reach the objective, to the point of min/maxing the fun out of the game. And therefore, the meta of the game has been distilled down to single skill clear-maxing, and thus we get the meta. Not because it's fun, but because without the efficiency of the meta, you miss out.

'Zoom is not fun. It's loot fomo'

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

If minions had to be constantly recast, I would probably still play them, because I like that archetype. Same thing in PoE1 with SRS.

On the single skill spam issue, I agree. Most builds are basically one main skill plus movement and a couple of utilities. The game lacks depth in that sense.

GG.
I haven't really played minions in a serious way since the old D2 days. As long as you are having fun, that's what matters.

And thanks for your comment there about the combat depth, because really that's the main concern. I'm just trying to look at how we might change the game, in order to create something that is more interesting. Something has to change, and not everyone will be happy with it. That's Amore

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Jyrlep#4788 wrote:

How to fix it is not obvious. Heavy cooldown systems would push it too far toward MMORPG design, and I do not think that is what PoE2 should be aiming for.

Addressed above, first two points.

-

We have some points of disagreement, and I'm not really persuaded with the appeals to tradition and the 'right by arpg definition' points but, You're genuine and presenting your thoughts honestly. So thanks, and feel free to elaborate or maybe there's something else I've missed.

cheers =)