Zoom is not fun. It's loot FOMO

"

WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

We've already been over most of this.
I'd like to hear you argue your position from a gameplay perspective. Describe to us how we're wrong about 1-click screen-clear being boring, and why a well implemented methodical combat system would be worse. From a user experience perspective.

Your references to player numbers to support your case has holes all over the place.

Your appeal to the high usage of meta builds has been thoroughly debunked several times.

We're not convinced.

Let me answer this question. RPG games, by their nature, progress through a cycle of fighting multiple monsters simultaneously => Loot => Progress => Battle Again. Meaningful combat is unlikely because there will be as many monsters on the screen as possible, and as many objects that can deal and receive damage. If Poe2 were essentially composed of two or three monster gangs, rather than large groups like RPGs, meaningful combat would be possible. You can dodge, parry, attack, and counterattack against three monsters, but you can't use meaningful attacks or defense against 50 monsters charging at you. The only options are to fight, flee, or die. Because this isn't an RPG.

Using player numbers to support a personal opinion A) is not a valid method and B) shows you're too much of a wuss to stand for your own opinion without a hypothetical army of people behind you.

The zoom playstyle is 100% preference and no one person's preference is inherently right, or wrong, or better, or worse.

That said, my personal preference is that the game is much more enjoyable, approachable, and engaging when you are able to see what is happening on the screen, and the combat is strategically engaging.

I also think that if you're the kind of person who's idea of a good time is to zoom around on a build that click-deletes bosses and the whole screen to maximize the number of times your loot filter chimes per map, you're not playing the game - you're circumventing it in a manner which transforms it into a simulation of hyper-stimulating virtual slot machine.

There is usually some overlap in preference with most people, but personally I think one of the main concerns for people who like to engage with game don't want to see poe2 devolve into a brain/combat-absent gambling simulator like poe1.

Fast paced gameplay is fine and I understand that it's okay to like the gambling-like aspects too, but my opinion is that upper limit on player power should never allow for complete circumvention of engagement with the content because it undermines the essence of an ARPG. It shifts the focus from strategic combat and thoughtful progression to pure loot farming, turning the game into a gambling simulator rather than a thoughtful experience.

I also think the gambling aspects are better and more rewarding when they complement the core gameplay, not when they replace it. Advocating for the game to embrace, preserve, or move further towards these "zoom" based mechanics risks eroding what makes the genre special - the challenge of mastering systems and making deliberate choices.

But then again, this is just like, my opinion, man.

"

JoTua#1329 wrote:

Let me answer this question. RPG games, by their nature, progress through a cycle of fighting multiple monsters simultaneously => Loot => Progress => Battle Again. Meaningful combat is unlikely because there will be as many monsters on the screen as possible, and as many objects that can deal and receive damage. If Poe2 were essentially composed of two or three monster gangs, rather than large groups like RPGs, meaningful combat would be possible. You can dodge, parry, attack, and counterattack against three monsters, but you can't use meaningful attacks or defense against 50 monsters charging at you. The only options are to fight, flee, or die. Because this isn't an RPG.

Thanks for your response.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but let's step through it.
I'll assume you meant "arpgs", but correct me if I'm wrong, if it matters.

RPG games, by their nature, progress through a cycle of fighting multiple monsters simultaneously => Loot => Progress => Battle Again.
Generally speaking, yep. I agree.
Sometimes you might fight a boss or a smaller group.

Meaningful combat is unlikely because there will be as many monsters on the screen as possible, and as many objects that can deal and receive damage.
So I actually agree quite a bit with this. Which is why I'm also an enthusiastic proponent of reducing monster density significantly. There is of course nuance to this, and I think it would be totally fine, good even, to still (sometimes) have situations where you fight large numbers of easily defeated enemies, so long as those enemies are balanced with the intention of being easily killed with regard to the expectation of player power. However, what I do not think is so good, is to have significantly stronger outlier build scenarios capable of trivializing all enemies this way. The hordes of weak enemies should be a sort of exception to the enemies you encounter, not the rule. What do you think about that?

If Poe2 were essentially composed of two or three monster gangs, rather than large groups like RPGs, meaningful combat would be possible. You can dodge, parry, attack, and counterattack against three monsters, but you can't use meaningful attacks or defense against 50 monsters charging at you.
I completely agree with you. All of it.
There are several things which must be done in order to have engaging combat:
- Reduced number of monsters (in many, but not all cases)
- More monster HP relative to player damage. A rebalance between the two.
- Less monster damage relative to player's effective life pool.
- An effort to improve visual clarity. Which should benefit from lower monster density.
- A drastic reduction in player sustain (things like regen & leech). Becaue if the player can recover their life quickly, then the only way for the player to ever die, is to have monsters that will one-shot their entire life pool. And if this is the case, 'attrition style' combat can never happen.
- And for the sake of balance between players and monsters, a more gradual curve in player power, which will bring the top and bottom end of player power closer together, and create a more predictable expectation of player power when balancing the monsters.
- Much more loot & experience per monster to compensate for stronger, fewer monsters.

These are the broad strokes of what would need addressing, which I can think of. Maybe you can think of more.

~Thanks, cheers.

"

karsey#2995 wrote:

Using player numbers to support a personal opinion A) is not a valid method and B) shows you're too much of a wuss to stand for your own opinion without a hypothetical army of people behind you.

Lol. I guess you should tell the same thing for TS, as he mentioned poe2 online number, so I presented player retention rate stats in % of initial online, not raw numbers.

Poe2 gained its audience because of Poe1 being absolute king of ARPG genre. With it being both complex and fun. If poe2 was called "dungeon of dwarves new hardcore arpg for true hardcore meaningful combat lovers" trust me NO ONE WOULD HAVE PLAYED IN AFTER 0.2 and especially if its game director showed middle finger to his audience during interview and said, quote: "People who dislike poe2 just don't know how to play this game as they are poe1 players" (c) Jonathan Rodgers during interview with some diablo guys. By the way, Jonathan also promised to stream us how he pushed to endgame with parry huntress. I do not hate Jonathan and don't want to offend him in any way, as there is nothing wrong in making mistakes. At least he recognized the mistake (the vision) and chose right path in 0.3.

By the way, I see completely no point is arguing with people who say that online number doesn't matter. If you go against the opinion of the majority of playerbase who enjoy fun, you want to ruin the game. It's a fact. And with people who say that poe2 attracted people because of "different gameplay than poe1" whereas 0.1 with 70% player retention rate was the most poe1 thing poe2 ever been. With zoomy builds and juicy drops.

Watch parts starting from 3:03 and 6:40, true highlights of "the vision" compleeeetelyyyyy not ruinig the game, and the vision which led to 0.2
you can watch the whole interview actually.
and now tell about "poe2 is not popular because of poe1 noooo and the vision was great you are just haters and you dont know how to play the game and i'm hardcore gamer!!!!"

0.1 day 30 retention rate is 70% (beautiful poe1-like game)
0.2 day 30 retention rate is 29% (nerf fiesta with absurd nerfs like removal of grenades, hexblast, detonate dead from the game. also deleted all the archetypes which worked in 0.1 and made hilarious nerfs like gemling legioner's ASCENDANCY PASSIVE WHICH LOWERS YOUR ATTRIBUTES xddd)

poe1 affliction day 30 retention rate is 54%
poe1 kalandra day 30 retention rate is 27% (worst nerf fiesta in poe history)
poe1 ritual (echoes of the atlas) day 30 retention rate is 49%
poe1 necropolis day 30 retention rate is 26% (nerf fiesta)

If numbers dont matter for you as you are true hardcore gamer nerfs enjoyer and want to play some pvp with white mobs to get 2 white axes dropped, do not reply please

I can answer your 2 question very fast, both is NO. Here is the reason:
- Firstly, i like the zom zom playstyle, where my character fast, and the progression to get there also a part of fun. If a game only need to beat boss then end, its no fun for me at all. I like to crafting my idea, make my own build for what i want on my character (Maybe you will never understand it, you likely more a type of want to press button to react with the game, while most of PoE player play poe just because deep mechanic, where they can throw thier idea to do many stuff, even it stupid stuff but always fun because its come from your creative, from your mind, from your logic). If you only need beat all BOSS and done, dont play POE, play some Soul-like game better, where they focus most to the combat. ARPG not this type.
- Secondly, because i want to zom zom, i need currency to make it work, even when i complete my build, as soon as i have some new idea, i need currency to make new one, that why i need to farm currency back again, and i dont want to spend like 2 day to farm currency its very boring, but fast build can solve my problem, save my time.
- Thirdly, as your opinion, should GGG just remove all loot, and let all your gear come from loot only ( no crafting cause you have no currency to do it at all), or just sell it in shop where you can buy it by gold cost? haha, if i can buy my item from shop with gold, i no need currency at all, even its 100% reduced loot as you want. But sure it will never happend, cause farming is the part of this game (even im not enjoy farming, but i know many ppl like to crafting thier farming strategy, get thier loot from what they understand the game, more deep more loot).
- Lastly, you maybe think zom zom build is the best for making currency. But i can tell you, the most profit thing in this game never come from mapping. Ppl want mapping just because they enjoy it, not because all about currency as you think. You just not understand the game deep enough to understand.

GL. Enjoy the game with your fun, but stop try to think all other people have same fun with you

So, look. I spend a lot of time outside the domain of PoE engaging in dialectic with friends about politics and philosophy and so on. I've done this practically every other day for years. And I mention this to say that, I really don't mind having a constructive disagreement with people, at all. I enjoy it, because I think it's a great way to see if your thoughts hold up to scrutiny, and to practice appreciating alternate points of view.

That all works just fine when people are engaged in good faith conversations with one another. But I've tried having a discussion with SoCold for quite a while now, and I'm confident enough in my own experience to say that they're not engaging in good faith.

No matter how clearly or how many times I try to explain something to them, they will simply ignore most of it, and restate the exact same points that I just finished considering carefully and deconstructing one at a time.

I would say this has happened about 5 or so times now. Perhaps more. And now we're talking about player numbers again, which I've responded to at least twice now. Reading over his latest input, which is posted twice for some reason, every point being made just seem to drip with disingenuousness and falsehoods.

Just, easily debunked, but I don't really see the point anymore. I'll still respond if he brings up anything new, especially if it's relevant to the subject of the thread. But that will be for anyone else who happens to be reading. I don't expect a sincere reply at this point.

Hopefully I'm not misreading the situation, but I don't think so.

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WhisperSlade#0532 wrote:

No matter how clearly or how many times I try to explain something to them, they will simply ignore most of it, and restate the exact same points that I just finished considering carefully and deconstructing one at a time.

TS: "0.1 which was heavily advertised and people waited for it because poe1 have been absolute king of ARPG industry̶ and not single project became as popular and "loud" in media (though we still have gems like Grim Dawn for instance) had more initial online than any poe1 leaguestart can you imagine???? it means that meaningful combat and slow methodological gameplay (0.1 temporalis and tempest flurry and bows) IS THE KEY FOR SUCCESS! doesn't matter though that 0.2 had the same initial online number as poe1 settlers and nearby same as Crucible (and probably other leagues with initial online closer to 200k players)"

Me: brother, but leagues with good endgame and expansions with great mechanics always have extremely high retention rating comparing to nerf fiestas with cutting endgame/progression down. it has been like this for at least 6 years. and active players number grow as game become more complex and gain more content.

TS: how dare you appeal to numbers!!! they mean effectively nothing!!! GGG please remove monsters from screen and delete aoe because ALL THE PEOPLE WHO PLAY CLEAR BUILDS HAVE FAKE FUN.

literally "constructive argument" about how important is abstract meaningful combat and how 200k ppl each league have "fake fun". true real fun is souls-like pvping with 1handed mace against white roas

I am completely aware what this thread is about
I did manage to read the title and everything, believe it or not.

Min-max and zoom-zoom-zoom is a lifestyle. For some people it is repetitive and boring, for others it is "how fast can I delete this map before my coffee gets cold". Both are valid. What is not so valid is trying to change the entire game and its tech setup just because you personally cannot handle that pace.

About the loot filter and why I brought it up in the first place.

In my opinion there are two main ways to deal with FOMO

1) Deal with yourself, call it self work or neurolinguistic programming or just "stop doomscrolling your own loot". Tune it out in your own head, accept things as they are, or change your own playstyle.

2) Change technology.

If you go with the second option, there are again two ways to go

2.1) Change technology for yourself. This is where loot filters come in. You let the tech hide a truckload of junk for you so your brain is not constantly screaming "pick up everything".

2.2) Change technology for everyone and force the whole game to bend around your preferences.

That second one affects every single player. I am going to say this as gently as possible with a tiny hint of sarcasm you are not actually the main character in everyone else's ARPG. Which is why I recommend 2.1. Use the tools that already exist and take control of what you see on your screen.

As for zoom-zoom-zoom extreme paced map running, PoE has always leaned that way. It has never been a slow paced ARPG and it probably never will be. That is just its identity.

I say that as someone who has been playing ARPGs for 20 plus years and whose favorite is one of the slowest, Titan Quest 1. Even then I would not demand changing the tech for EVERYONE just because I like to stroll instead of sprint.

What I like about PoE2 is that it does not force me to go full zoom. I can play slower if I want. Yes, it is not as competitive, yes, I might not be as rewarded as the turbo farmers, but honestly, who cares. I am responsible for my own fun, not theirs.

For some players the main goal of the game is "clear maps as fast as humanly possible". That is mostly an end game thing and it is only just being introduced. Please do not ask the devs to remove that kind of content entirely, because then you delete a whole playerbase that actually enjoys it.

What you can do instead is suggest adding more content that does not require zoom-zoom-zoom map clear and that you would personally enjoy. That is a win win, you get your thing, they keep theirs.

As I have said in other threads, PoE2 should not try to be PoE1 with a fake mustache. Yes, they are similar, but PoE2 should lean more into casual friendly stuff, more community, more events.

Guild Wars 2 is a good example here, even if it is an MMORPG. It has had a stable playerbase for more than 10 years because it offers a mix. Some players want zoom-zoom-zoom raid speedruns, others want jumping puzzles and relaxed world events. Different content for different tastes, everyone gets to pick their poison.

So if you feel overwhelmed by loot or by the pace of the game, you already have those two options. You can work on how you approach it and you can change the tech for yourself with things like loot filters. You can even do both at the same time if you feel spicy.

And about the sarcasm implying I do not know what this thread is about, maybe keep that one in your pocket next time. Hating on other players is not clever, it is one of the reasons people say the PoE community is miserable. Do not be toxic, it really does not suit you and it does nothing for your argument.

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SoColdO_O#1989 wrote:

Poe2 gained its audience because of Poe1 being absolute king of ARPG genre.

hi! me personally and a bunch of my co-worker friends came over from the roguelike/soulslike side of the internet when poe2 lauched, we have all tried poe1 at some point and none of us liked the game, to be precise, no one liked the gameplay, systems are great, gameplay is dog shit, among the worst in the genre i'd say, pov: we are all old (40+) and have been around since pre-diablo1 days.

i've read everything you've written in the this thread and i think i know where you stand but do you mind really drilling it down for me?

imagine this:

* the game is well balanced, every skill does roughly the same dps (damage, action speed, movement speed and uptime are all factored in).

* the map device has juice sliders like so: |0----50----100|, more juice = more rewards.

* juice balance is the following: an incredibly knowledgeable and mechanically skilled player could conceivably max out 3 of these sliders, most players only 1 or 2.

monster / boss action/movement speed: |----------|

monster / boss less damage taken/more hp: |----------|

pack size: |----------|

mechanics to play around/dodge: |----------|

questions:

* where would you put the sliders and why?

* do you understand and/or care about if poe2 becomes more like poe1 players like me and others in this thread will just stop playing and supporting the game?

thank you.