The 6-8 hour mandatory tutorial

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

no one was sitting around with this amazing idea for a fantasy story and thought "no, im not gonna write a book, im going to tell the story through the medium of a diablolike arpg hacker looter". no one has ever done this.

Actually....this isn't true. There are plenty of times where the story and medium are chosen hand-in-hand.

Example off the top of my head: Harry Potter and the Cursed Child. JK had a story idea, but the only medium she felt that could convey that story was a Play, and NOT another novel...

Why do writers choose to create novels over plays, over movie scripts, etc? They have the story AND the medium in mind to deliver that story.

There are likely direct quotes from some of the greatest playwrights, authors, and creative minds throughout history where they specifically state WHY they felt the particular story could ONLY be told through the medium in which they created it.

Game development isn't much different. Although in THIS specific case, the game was almost definitely developed before the story. But we most certainly can't make that call.

imm specifically talking about arpgs tho, some maybe slightly cross wires.


poe, diablo, grim dawn, titan quest, torchlight, wolcen, epoch. we can sort of name them all and count them there really isnt many significant ones that matter. all of them have a story tacked on for the sake of having a story. the initial D1 is probably the best because it does what they all should have done which is actually make a story that works with the gameplay to some extent. theres a synergy there, every other one of those if the campaign isnt total shit on the first playthrough it becomes unbearable, for me at least, by about 5 repeats in.


im not saying games cant be made where the story is the start of the process, im saying a hack n slash arpg is not one of those games, at least certainly none of the significant titles in this genre so far.

"

Phrazz#3529 wrote:

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Although in THIS specific case, the game was almost definitely developed before the story. But we most certainly can't make that call.

You two are almost talking like the campaign has no elements of gameplay, like the campaign is all about the story and that the endgame has no story. The gameplay is just as important in the campaign as it is in the endgame and it has everything to do about the progression and the contrast in power.

Two of the things PoE does better than "all" other ARPG's, are:

1) The way you start out as a naked nobody
2) The way the game doesn't shy away from giving you the power we're all here to achieve - if you put in the effort.

---

I get it; people are getting tired of doing the same campaign over and over, and as I said, I'm not against an alternative (even though I think players would be tired of the alternative quicker than you think). But to make it sound like the campaign is only here to provide the players with a story - in a game all about progression - is missing the mark and needlessly simplified.

the thing with the campaign as its currently done by D2/3/4, poe1/2, grim, TQ, TL2 etc etc is i think they are incompatible with the gameplay.

the gameplay is about efficiency, fast action, being good at the game espcially. first time u play you dont care about being good as the game so much people are more likely to take their time and enjoy the story.

as you get better at the game the gameplay vs getting to town and being given a wall of paragraphs to read as part of your quest etc? trash. its incompatible, it doesnt work.



i love books. i love films. i dont want to go to the cinema, watch 2 minutes of some intense battle scene, someone pauses the film comes in and hands me 3 pages of a book to read to get the story for the film, then unpaause lets watch 3 more minutes if action with 0 dialogue then lets pause the film again and hand out the next part of the story in book form to read... its such trash, the way they make arpg storeys does not work with the gameplay of a much repeated game.


so much so even chris would talk about how essential it is that every dialogue etc can be skipped through by spam clicking because he doesnt listen to any of it, he knows most people dont listen to any of it so the entire game of poe1 and 2 is designed with the idea that most people dont listen to any of the dialogue, have no idea what the story is and are just trying to work out what pointless time wasting fetch quest or leaver pull is being expected of them to complete the 'task' that is put there simply for the sake of having a task to get to progress.

did they make the game because they thought fetch quest the game would be a cool game? no. did they make it to make this story for people? no they specifically say they know most people dont even listen to the story on the first play through.


but they added the story and the fetch quest because they felt they were supposed to, even though they are both at complete odds with the actual gameplay of a hack n slash diablolike.



you can do a story in an arpg like this that works with the gameplay, none of the current arpgs have done it tho. theyre all 2 minutes of michael bay cgi action sequence jarringly followed by some clown reading you a section of a novel in town, and its nit even a good novel its absolute episodic filler garbage.


i know a number of people who are into mmos, MTG, warhammer type things who are really put off playing poe 1 or 2 because you have to repeat the campaign every new character. im not making that up, its a thing.

"

Phrazz#3529 wrote:

"

satanttin#4601 wrote:

we're still killing monsters to level up so ehh. does it really matter?

Not in the long run, I think. Sure, a new way of leveling might be cool for a league or two, but after that, I don't think it would matter much. Afterall, as you say, we're still killing monsters.

there are some people who hate delve tho. if the entire game was delve they wouldnt play the game. but delve is just killing mobs same as maps?

why have all this other content? some people hate heist, why do they like maps but hate heist its just killing mobs right? if we just removed maps/delve etc and only had heist as the endgame it would be fine because its just killing mobs surely? its all the same?


but its not really the same. some people like all of those and others absolutely hate some of the content and will never play it. i hate trial of sekemas or whatever its called in poe2, i hate it with a passion.

i hate these campaigns with a passion too after a few repeats.

"

Bra1ncrack3r#2854 wrote:

I find it very difficult to beleive that with 8k+ hours, you feel this way, someone who dislikes repetition does not put 8k hours into an ARPG.

repetition is not the problem. its repetition of content that is very poorly designed for repetition and we find repulsive to play.



im already at the point with poe2 where i dont think im even gonna play the next league because i hate the campaign and the thought of forcing myself to do that again is nauseating. i absolutely love playing the game, the endgame is great and i could play maps like that with a lvl2 character, but repeating that campaign again? i would rather slam my head in a car door. it repulses me.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

repetition is not the problem. its repetition of content that is very poorly designed for repetition and we find repulsive to play.

This is the golden comment of the thread.

"repetition of content poorly designed for repetition"

Why do we play arpgs for years on end, even though ultimately the game loop is just grind grind grind grind repeat repeat repeat repeat? It's because we LIKE that game loop. We LIKE to grind and progress. We LIKE to kill monsters (for years). These are the things we LIKE.

But the repetition of the campaign has: the weakest amount of killing monsters, the weakest amount of grind (no drops), the MOST interruptions to the gameplay loop repetition that we LOVE so much. It almost has no connection to the REAL game...which is mapping, former league content, bossing, etc. All the things we choose to do year after year because we like them.


Not all repetition is created equally. And Snorkle said it well as well: most people prefer a specific content over another despite the fact that, ultimately, the loop is the same. I HATE delve, I basically never enter the mine. But its not fundamentally different as a gameplay loop as blasting maps. It just "feels" different. The campaign is the worst offender of this, because UNLIKE maps or even delve.....the campaign doesn't change.

Even I, as an absolute hater of delve, would WELCOME being able to level in delve if that were the only choice over running the campaign again. Because at least delving is varied, challenging, and uninterrupted hack n slash.

Imagine being FORCED to read the same book every 3 months, where you don't actually get to choose the book you want to re-read. I'll happily read Harry Potter every 3-4 months provided I get to choose to read Harry Potter....but if someone told me I had to read Atlas Shrugged every 3-4 months I would absolutely hate it. It's not the act of reading (the game loop) that is the problem, it is the content (the campaign).

"

VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

"

Strickl3r#3809 wrote:

GGG already said that 10-12 hours is the average for veteran players it's no secret they have the data. So you live in some kind of bubble.

If 12 hours is considered the "average" time to complete the campaign, how come a large chunk of players are already past level 80 on day one? Realistically, that level of progress should take even experienced players more than 24 hours, based on that 12-hour campaign benchmark.

In this post Void purposely confuses "average" with "above average" to push his narrative.

"

yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

In this post Void purposely confuses "average" with "above average" to push his narrative.

Not even "above average".....the numbers are literally "grandmaster" levels, probably sub-100 players total can achieve.

"

yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

In this post Void purposely confuses "average" with "above average" to push his narrative.

The real issue here is that you don’t want to admit that needing 12 hours to complete the campaign places you below the average player. You’re calling those who know the campaign inside and out after a dozen runs, and breeze through the content beyond that, “above average” just to make 12+ hours sound more acceptable.

But in reality, they’re simply the baseline average players who’ve got good at the basics. And yes, numbers back that up. The so-called "above average" players are those grinding 18-hour days from day one, treating it like a job, or taking paid time off just to go hard week one. These are the ones with a Mageblood by day two, crafting mirror-tier items within the first week or two. That’s what "above average" looks like.

But for the rest, who don’t waste time and still crush the campaign (and everything beyond it) without skipping a beat, they're just average. Finishing quickly isn’t some monumental achievement, it’s the baseline for players who’ve been around long enough to optimize, learn the ins and outs, and benefit from years of gameplay evolution. Permanent growth in player power over time has also made it easier to speed things up and push boundaries even for the average casual.

But 12 hours, or even 9 hours? That’s not average, it’s below average. You’re wasting time the average player doesn’t, and that’s not impressive, it’s simply a fact. No meme, no narrative being pushed just an ice-cold reality check.
No shame in being below average, but that’s the way the numbers play out.

"

cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Not even "above average".....the numbers are literally "grandmaster" levels, probably sub-100 players total can achieve.

Grandmaster sub-100 levels? That’s why half the playerbase has no issues hitting that mark, right? Guess anyone who’s even slightly better than you is now a "god gamer" by default.
It’s not some elite achievement when the majority can pull off a 3-hour alt campaign run or a 5-6 hour fresh start run, hell even a sub-12 hour Eater Exarch run. Those are just basic milestones for players who know the game inside and out. If that’s your definition of "grandmaster," then I guess the majority of the playerbase is just full of "god gamers."

Makes me wonder what you’d call the real speedrun pros at this point, since every average player is already at "grandmaster" god gamer level. Guess those speedrun legends must just be "cheaters" now, since they go above and beyond what you'd consider reasonable performance for already fast grandmasters. Must be tough when players keep pushing the boundaries like that huh?

You are treating the top of the line speed league starters running preplanned optimized campaign rush builds to the vast number of experienced people who play through the campaign at a more reasonable pace, most of the benchmarks you're talking about are league starting records(you'll see them as golden text in the chat). 3 hour league start is possible on a vanishingly few builds if you know exactly what you are doing and have everything planned out already and get decently lucky on gear drops and don't need to trade for anything, 6 hours is still very fast. I can at this point do an about 4 to 7ish hour leveling of an alt and 10ish hour league start campaign, doesn't change the fact that the campaign being a miserable slog of run past enemies to get to the point you need to go to in order to progress the story is the primary barrier to me making alts for every new build idea I have.

I agree that campaign on league start serves something of a purpose but there should be a way to level alts that isn't rerunning one of the worst experiences in PoE every time (heist manages to be even less fun for much of the same reason, you're not actually doing any real playing, just running past stuff looking for the display room), endless delve would be a workable option but really just anything with decent monster density and less running across large maps with terribly low movement speed (the only reason I've made as many alts as I have this league is because I bought a mageblood before making most of them and have 95% inc effect quicksilver for the back half of the acts to make things faster and less frustrating).

Not to be "elitist" or anything here, but 3-4 hours on an alt, with decked out leveling gear (which you "should" have on an alt, especially if you don't like the campaign) isn't really that fast. We're talking tons of movement speed and items that can take you from low levels to maps without being replaced.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

repetition is not the problem. its repetition of content that is very poorly designed for repetition and we find repulsive to play.

While this is a very good point, I still struggle to see how killing monsters during the campaign is "repulsive". It's not like you have to visit town more than once or twice each act, and can more or less just keep killing monsters.

But as I said, this isn't a hill I'm ready to die on. I'm not against an alternative way to level an alt. I welcome it, as long as they do it right. And balanced.

But I do firmly believe that you have to level through the campaign once every league. There are tons of hints, signs and vendor recipes out there that GGG have added for there to be an element of skill/knowledge barrier. They WANT to reward skill and knowledge, and being fast/ahead of the economy is a reward in itself. They want it to be possible for a player to be... Good. And that's OK.

"

reemsdaddy#4225 wrote:

Leveling up in a campaign and feeling gear and character progression is the quintessential ARPG experience. I agree, it can feel tedious at times, although I believe every other option on the table like skipping it or whatever is just straight up worse for the longevity of the game and ruins immersion for me. Just my personal opinion though.

Except none of those things exist past act3.

I get 4 links in Act3 and my leveling build is generally fully online.

I don't upgrade gear again until red maps, I don't feel gear progression.

Enemies die in 1 hit until red maps, I don't feel character progression.

Power creep zoom zoom has ruined the entire RPG experience.

"

VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

"

yummysushipjs#7638 wrote:

In this post Void purposely confuses "average" with "above average" to push his narrative.

The real issue here is that you don’t want to admit that needing 12 hours to complete the campaign places you below the average player.

I don't need to admit anything, because I'm not the one that said 10-12 hours is average for veteran players.

GGG did.

lol 10-12 hours? Are we playing the same game?