The Uber Sirus fight as mele is ABSOLUTE proof that..

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

But then again a quick glance at the characters in question and I usually have my answer.

Almost every time it's the players fault, but instead of getting better it's easier to blame GGG I guess.
Good think that GGG does know better most of the time, and that's why those fights are unchanged since years :)

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Pashid#4643 wrote:

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

But then again a quick glance at the characters in question and I usually have my answer.

Almost every time it's the players fault, but instead of getting better it's easier to blame GGG I guess.
Good think that GGG does know better most of the time, and that's why those fights are unchanged since years :)

Exactly. No need to fix it if it isn't broken.

Its genuinely weird to white knight something that is almost universally hated and even for those who defend GGG (almost as if its their job...) the fight is among their worst as well.

At no point have either of you said the fight is well designed or fun. Only that its very doable with better gear, which I actually agree with.

Why defend a fight thats not fun or well designed, because its beatable?

Shouldn't your standards be a bit higher?

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

I'd really wish people would stop spreading this ... misconception. You simply need to have an adequat amount of armor relative to the hits you want to tank. Not being able to tank shaper slams with 10k armor doesn't mean that armor does nothing against big hits, you just don't have enough. 36k armour without abyssus reduces a shaper slam by roughly the same amount as 8-9 endurance charges. That's far from "nothing". And 36k armour isn't very high nowadays.

Uh.....its mathematical fact. Not a misconception.

If we are talking shaper slam, and I mean BASIC shaper: slam deals 300% of 5689. Lets round that WAY DOWN to 15000 total damage.

To defend at 8-9 endurance charges (32-36% reduction) you need 2.5x 15000 = 37500. Sure.....fits into what you said. BUT what you completely fail to say is that you are taking 33% of 15000 damage lol. Which is over 10k flat damage AFTER mitigation. Which is equivalent to the statement "Your armor is doing nothing against big hits". Because with or without the 37500 armor.....you are going to die in one hit. If its a 1hko, with or without your mitigation, then your mitigation is mathematically ZERO.

You can frame it so it "looks good" by claiming its the equivalent of all those endurance charges.....but you can't hide the actual truth of the outcome of having that paltry amount of armor versus a big hit like a shaper slam.

And we are talking a very specific instance with this thread that DOES include Abyssus (and not an additional 8-9 endurance charges), you can't just arbitrarily ignore that in this one specific thread. Taking all that extra damage requires you to have almost double (or exactly double?) the armor we have been talking about........to get only 33% reduction in damage.

So what's your point exactly? Yes, 36k armor against shaper slam will likely still get you killed because you'll need more armour to properly deal with this level of damage. Shaper slam is the second highest source of physical damage in a single hit in the game after all, with only his uber version doing more. Expecting to easily facetank that with paltry amounts of armour is stupid to begin with.

The argument i responded to was that "armour does nothing against big hits". My counter point is that it's just a matter of how much armour you have. You can reduce uber shapers slam by 90% with armour alone if you are so inclined. That is the mathematical fact here. All you are doing is reinforcing my point.
My example also shows how it isn't even that bad by comparison since, as Draegnarr already pointed out, getting 8-9 endurance charges is far more expensive than getting 40k armour and is the same performance wise despite armour being oh so bad against big hits. Phys as ele admittedly used to be better against big hits but since it's only scarcely available now, that isn't even as much of a problem nowadays. Ultimately post settlers if you want to tank big phys hit's you'll likely have all 3 sources of phys mitigation anyway.

Me ignoring Abyssus for that point is also perfectly fine because that part of my argument wasn't adressing the OPs suboptimal build but the statement of "armour doing nothing against big hits". That statement has nothing to do with abyssus so i have no reason to dive in on it. Even less so since abyssus doesn't really change anything fundamentally. You'll take 40% more damage and will need correspondingly more armour for the same effect. End of the story.

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Celestriad#0304 wrote:

The average player seems to perceive their characters as more powerful than they actually are, the OP of this thread is a good example, so they get humbled / skill checked by bosses and from there it's always GGG's fault. A story as old as time.

i will admit, there is a lot to say about a players skill issue. because in many cases, YES it is a skill issue. i can never dodge shaper's bullet hell. i can never do mavens memory game. perhaps in the early stages yes, but later ones, nah. literally impossible unless by pure luck.

as much as i am humbled to the point that i would outright admit i have skill issues. on the flipside, better players also may need to check themselves too.

in an interview jonathan shared how during poe2's development he felt that one of the early boss fights was too easy. he instructed his team to crank it up.

but somewhere along the way, he had a second thought.

he realized that HE GOT BETTER. he got gud. the boss felt easier because he simply became more adept at fighting the boss.

so he rescinded the order.

i like this interview as it shows that sometimes having skill requirement set too high can lead to a negative experience.

you good players dont see the issue as you're good. your skill level/build/gears are good. it doesnt effect you. ironically all your elite gaming skills have made you blind to how it feels like for other players. there is no mercy in your assessment. and it is quite common. its also overlaps with the "if it doesnt affect me it shouldnt be a problem" mindset.

for sure some players have shitty gear/builds/skills. all that is a jumble of different aspects that make it hard to judge. it can be quite subjective.

one thing i find objectively bad is maven's memory game. which is the best example of better players exhibiting the "it doesnt affect me so its not a problem" mindset.

i've tried everything. i've even watched random clips of people doing maven and tried memorizing the pattern in real time. still fail and thats in a controlled environment since i'm not even playing the game.

so for sure. i m quite used to all this "skill issue" comments. in fact. i've even gone to the point that i realize, poe isnt for me.

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exsea#1724 wrote:

you good players dont see the issue as you're good. your skill level/build/gears are good. it doesnt effect you. ironically all your elite gaming skills have made you blind to how it feels like for other players. there is no mercy in your assessment. and it is quite common. its also overlaps with the "if it doesnt affect me it shouldnt be a problem" mindset.

The truth is simple: evolve or be left behind. The game doesn’t exist to coddle your weaknesses. If, after countless attempts, you’re still failing, don’t blame the design, it’s a reflection of your own limitations. As Mark once said: 'Deal with it.'

Complaining about something that has stood the test of time and serves as a skill check is pure entitlement. The game doesn’t owe you an easier path, especially after power creep has already softened the challenge. If you want comfort, you're in the wrong place.

This applies to anyone who thinks a design has 'failed' them. If you’re getting farmed and skill-checked by pixels, it’s not the game, it’s you who’s failed to rise to the occasion. Get good, or accept being left behind.

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trixxar#2360 wrote:

At no point have either of you said the fight is well designed or fun. Only that its very doable with better gear, which I actually agree with.

I don't have to because this is not what this thread is about. Conquerors of the Atlas released in December 2019 which makes Sirus almost a 6 year old encounter. Obviously the game has changed a lot since then but my opinion didn't. Conquerors were amazing endgame and for what it is worth, they still are.

I prefer A8 (and later A9) Sirus (including Shaper, Elder and their Ubers) over the Eldritch gods, 100%. No competition.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

This applies to anyone who thinks a design has 'failed' them. If you’re getting farmed and skill-checked by pixels, it’s not the game, it’s you who’s failed to rise to the occasion. Get good, or accept being left behind.

Well said.

I would put boss immunity as the most annoying aspect in an ARPG like PoE.

You just want to get on with it.

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If you’re getting farmed and skill-checked by pixels, it’s not the game, it’s you who’s failed to rise to the occasion.

What?

Are you serious?

Bad game design is now supposed to be applauded?

How can I distinguish pixels when they are all colored the same? Let's take Mario Bros. from the original NES and make a bullet bill light blue colored like the background sky. Hey, you failed to dodge it because it all looks the same. SKILL ISSUE HMM?

Literally every other ARPG blows away POE1 in visual clarity and basic contrast in design of enemies and abilities relative to the environment. Is this some kind of Stockholm Syndrome of "nah we're hardcore OG here bro everything is perfect stop questioning"?

Hey the shaper fight shoots yellow beams on a dark purple/black tileset/arena. Can we make this beam the same color as the tileset/arena so I feel more SKILL trying to dodge something I can't see?

Wow, I can't believe players actually applaud this design, but these are the POE forums.

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Baharoth15#0429 wrote:

last post

I only want to say two things and stop, because this is an aside and you are fundamentally misunderstanding this side conversation.

1) YOU brought up the shaper slam, not me. YOU brought up the 33%, not me. These are YOUR examples

2) Do you even know WHY people say the line "armour does nothing against big hits"? Because it sure seems like you don't. It isn't a misconception. When you take a big hit, and your mitigation layer doesn't function to save you, it has ZERO function. 0%. Not 33%/50%/75% etc., if you die with or without it then it is functionally ZERO. Not only that, but the fact that the HIT you take directly influences (negatively) the mitigation you receive is backward from what it SHOULD be doing.

That is NOT the same as "armour does nothing" period. And sure....like you said if you had MORE armour, it would be more effective. But that isn't the point here. The POINT is that getting from functionally zero to functionally ANYTHING is wildly enormous. You mention being able to reduce shaper slam 90%.....sure you can, but it would require well over 200k armor. Even a build specifically specced into armor would be hard-pressed to get that amount. And if you were even slightly under that cutoff, you lose (using your endurance charge example) at least 3 endurance charges worth of reduction almost immediately. ONLY to that particular attack.

Like all defensive layers, more investment means greater protection. But UNLIKE any other defensive layer, armour has a curve that significantly reduces its effectiveness the more damage you take...to the point of that "mitigation" being functionally zero, when in other scenarios it might be 90%. AKA: "armour does nothing against big hits".

Perhaps that saying has some hyperbole in it because it isn't really doing NOTHING....but your argument and examples are far outside "proof" and missing the point. The comparison to endurance charges is one such form of "misinformation": while endurance charges ALWAYS yield the same mitigation regardless of incoming damage, armour does NOT. When you need it most, it disappears.

In the original post YOU responded to and quoted "nothing" was in quotes. Because in this particular example, with abyssus and against a boss dealing 5k damage in a single hit, the armor IS doing "nothing". The FULL original quote that sparked your outburst was this:

"People need to understand that armor does 'nothing' versus big hits, and the amount of armor and/or endurance charges you need to make up for the HUGE drawback of an Abyssus is also huge."

Read the part you DIDN'T quote......sounds an awful lot like the argument you have been trying to make. Right from the start, you had nothing to complain about regarding any "misconception".