Unbalanced Gold Cost (Settlers), does GGG expect no lifers only??

Ahhh.. The hot topic, .. Gold cost.. Interesting.



First to the op, I feel your pain, and trust me when you scale up and get to the highest level of game play, it doesn't feel much better. However, your particular situation, you've actually gotten some good feedback from some knowledgeable players it seems, Well,... for the most part ..

I'd say Follow the advice given, well except for the "it's not for you" and "ignore it this late in the league". You'll bounce back and feel better about running settlers, in the early to mid-late game, there's still a lot you can gain from running your settlers,.. until... You get to the super late game and want to multi task. Unfortunately, it seems, that's just not "normal" gameplay. But I digress..

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

It is NOT more expensive on the trade site....

I'm sorry but this is just flat out wrong.

I first have to ask,.. Moo, have you even played the current league, and felt the burden in this league: Mercenaries?
We are not talking about past leagues or experiences here,.. I mean in another topic you didn't even know the Scour + Chance option is now in the crafting bench.. I ask because you give all this advice, yet not one achievement badge appears next to your name. I would think if you even got through the acts surely you'd have at least one. Or am I mistaken and you have a second account for some reason to play the game and one to play in the forums? It's a genuine question.

The reason I genuinely ask, we've all clearly played this game for a VERY long time, probably all put in WAY more hours than we probably should.... (what have I done with my life..) The thing is we ALL know how much can change in not only the base game mechanics, but ESPECIALLY in new league mechanics from league to league. Everything from Player skill balance, to drop rates, to what "feels" like RNG weights, ect, ect,.. The list goes on and on. Trying to place past league experiences in current leagues,.. well, it's a bit out of touch to be honest. Maybe I'm wrong, but I can only address what I see, and you've yet to answer the question asked multiple times, not that you have to ofc..


Now given unlike the guy you're responding to here. I do not just "sit in my hideout and craft", I spelled this out many, many times in the previous thread, I actually engage with every aspect of the game, and in my experience in this league which I and the OP have played, we both find the burden of gold to just,.. Well, like I said before, it feels out of tune

But,.. I do have to chime in when you say it's not more expensive on the trade site. Maybe you can't see it, because again, it LOOKS like you're not playing the league, but to quote myself previously because it's applicable.

that post can be found here, (It's a good closing statement btw):
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3814633/page/5#p26262951

Before you start accusing me of being a "Top 1%", or "Hide Out Andy", that "I don't want to farm for gold" or any other assumption, I suggest you read that final post, which much like the entirety or the thread, I said repletely how wrong those accusations were.

In response to Fautus vs Trade Site Cost:

(I know quoiting myself, so Cliché)

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JediWabbit#3091 wrote:

"...It's also been said that "you don't have to use Faustus", "There's the old trading system". Point being, yes the trade site still exists, but it is not the same trade site we had before Faustus. Prices on the trade site have ballooned 20 to 30% over what you can buy at Faustus, and in all honesty 20-30% what they used to be before Faustus. I can buy 3000 fusings for one divine through Faustus, and less than 1100 on the trade site, (this it ONE SINGULAR example).
The point is, Faustus is a new iteration of gameplay in a game that thrives on innovating and adding new content, and the addition of Faustus HAS CHANGED THE GAME including the old trade system. The suggestion of going to use the trade site is like suggesting, "hey, why play Settlers League? Poe standard's always been there, Go play standard."
It's not why people play the game. You play for the new content, and the advancement of the game.

Another point to be made regarding Faustus. This is not brand new. Faustus was introduced in Settlers, reiterated in Poe 2 and now in his third form in this league. As with any new content introduced in this game, we're at the point of maturing. What happens with maturity? The first iteration begins to take a new form...."

One more point I'd like to address:
(Believe me I don't like making long posts, and hope to move away from them in the future, there's just a few points, I feel need, to be made..)

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

....it is merely not as instantaneously self-adjusting as Faustus is. More often than not, it can actually be cheaper because listings sometimes haven't caught up with new inflation. Any price differences in relation to past leagues are normal price fluctuations. In any case, this also isn't new to oldschool trade: the "cheaper" options aren't actually available and you end up settling for a higher rate to complete a trade faster. In fact, usually paying a few additional chaos can help avoid every single negative aspect of old trade that most people complain about.

Again referring to my quote, and honestly the entirely of that post, this is just flat out wrong, and, in my opinion, based possibly off previous league experience. If you were playing the current league, you could easily open up the game right now, open Faustus, open the trade site and do some very fast side by side comparisons to see just how factually wrong this all is.


The facts of the matter is, you are interpreting your definition of "normal" via GGG through your own opinion, and as valid as it might seem to you it is still your opinion, and your interpretation. I'm sorry that's just the way the world works. Until GGG defines normal in their words and their definition it's not up to any one of us to define what is and what is not normal game play. We DO however have the right to define normal gameplay for ourselves, and state for ourselves our opinion.


to be clear, I'm not attacking you, I'm not antagonizing you, I merely stating facts as facts, and my opinion as my opinion. I know sometimes the facts can feel like an attack, but rest assured it's not.

Have a nice day!

Pretty much agree with Jedi. I guess the main part I disagree with the other guy boils down to whether playing the economy in an economy based game is considered by GGG to be a viable way to play the game. I'd be interested in where they've started that is not intended because that's not how I've interpreted anything I've heard in any interviews.

I agree 100% and I'm not going to sit here and lie to anybody. I obviously play this game because I love the economy aspects of it first and foremost. I love the trade PvP, but that does not mean my experience is limited to just that. I also enjoy the all aspects of this game, I love building characters and getting super strong and just demolishing all levels of content, as well as now running the passive gameplay which is Settlers, in addition to the economy based game play that I've come to enjoy over the years. but that doesn't take away my other focuses of wanting to play the entirety of the game as is available.

I think a lot of folks perceive the game they want to perceive in how it's normalized for them, but they fail to realize normal and perception of the game is in the eye of the beholder. At this point there are literally more people than you can fathom that play this game for the economy aspects. So, narrowing this game down to what's normal based on your perception, at least to me, is outside the realms and the bounds of what the game actually is, and what the game actually is to many different individuals, including GGG.


Just as you've said, it's been stated many times in interviews through GGG staff dating back to when Chris was here, just how important they understand the economy is to a lot of players. They understand a lot of players base their gameplay around the economy. To me, and through my interpretation of things that have been said by them, they realize economy based play is quote UN quote, a normal means of game play.

EDIT:
Just to be clear, I am not referring to sitting your hideout and flipping currency, or botting/multi-boxing for gold or botting/multi-boxing for beasts. That is not, in my opinion, normal means of gameplay. **** those guys.

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KaosuRyoko#1633 wrote:

where they've started that is not intended because that's not how I've interpreted anything I've heard in any interviews.

The point is they haven't and won't say it: they've SHOWN it in how they develop their game.

You think game developers routinely tell their customers "you need to play this game this way"? No.....you learn how to play the game, based on how the game is put together. They obviously have intentions behind their decisions, otherwise we wouldn't have a game.


It's like reading comprehension exams and SAT questions: when they ask you "what is the context of that statement?" or "Why do you think the author chose to write xyz instead of abc?". Same with the game. Faustus gold costs are not conducive to someone NOT playing, yet they are fine for the average person regularly mapping and regularly trading. And extreme faustus use is not conducive to unfocused playing. Kingsmarch is hard to maintain while using faustus heavily. Scarab hunting doesn't just "happen". You don't find enough loot in a single map/boss even fully juiced...etc.

All of these things aren't accidents. They are specific design choices meant to engage you in the game in a certain way. And stop you from easily engaging in other ways. And then you can pair that with how things have changed over the years, continuously attempting to nudge you more and more into playtime.

Just like when skills get rebalanced and some things nerfed hard into the ground. It's all the same: signals of how the developer wants players to interact with the game environment they are creating. Sometimes they fail at getting what they want, sometimes they succeed. But ALWAYS they have a purpose. Entire teams of people work on these things to decide how they should work: you can bet there was at least one pro/con that stated "too much gold / too low cost can make people able to stay in their hideout too long between maps".

Developers don't need to come out and give you a list of what they want: its all right there in plain sight.



If there is something that you are doing within the game, that is exceedingly difficult to do....by comparison with everything else, then that is a sure sign that the developers don't WANT you to be doing that. Or at the very least, they don't want it to be all that you do. Or even the majority of what you do. The fact that this thread and others like it exist is proof positive of the "intentions" of the developers and Faustus.

You can claim its a balance thing all you want....but remember that Faustus was introduced now over a year ago. Sure, settlers was an extra long league but the intention behind their choice NOT to make him less expensive, while at the same time INCREASING kingsmarch costs shows you where their mind is for development. A year is a LOT of data and development time where they COULD have made changes if they wanted him to be used more on the "regular". But they didn't.

Again, just to be clear, sure...GGG is known for being very poor at balancing new things. But that only serves to make their intentions behind their decisions even more clear to us. The extreme is where they want it: the future nerfs are generally appeasements, but they rarely ever come to a point where the actual original function changes. Faustus costs MIGHT come down, Kingsmarch costs MIGHT come down, but you will NEVER be able to run both at max without doing dedicated gold farming. It just won't happen.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

The point is they haven't and won't say it: they've SHOWN it in how they develop their game.

You're missing a key point and again, defining things for people the way you see it even in this statement, is based on your perception of what the dev has shown and not said anything about. You make your assumptions, b/c that is your perception. Without a developer, or whoever has shown the thing in question, not stating explicitly what it means, what it can do, what it can't do, ect,.. It is up to the eye of the beholder to interpret what they are being shown, and each individual interpretation can be different unless explicitly stated by the producer of such content.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Developers don't need to come out and give you a list of what they want: its all right there in plain sight.



If there is something that you are doing within the game, that is exceedingly difficult to do....by comparison with everything else, then that is a sure sign that the developers don't WANT you to be doing that. Or at the very least, they don't want it to be all that you do. Or even the majority of what you do.

You're right, developers don't have to explicitly come out and say exactly what they intend or what they want. Maybe they want people to experience things and learn from themselves through actual game play. However, the fact of the matter is you still can't sit there and assume your interpretation is the interpretation that everyone else should take. It's the same statement I made before.
Second thing, referring yo your closing statement, how many times after League has start, have there been interviews or has there been feedback to the devs that devs come back and say this was not our intention, we did not want this, we're going to adjust this, etc.., (The answer is MANY)

Just because your interpretation of "well, if they didn't say it", "it must mean this", doesn't mean it's true.

You're also citing examples of things in this game that have been refined over many, many years. The subject in question is something that is not entirely new, but newer to the point it's only been around for two leagues and one other iteration in PoE2. It is being refined. People are finding growing pains. It's being identified. The entirety of this game has evolved around feedback and discussion of things that might be too much of A pressure point. That's the whole point of this feedback forum. To cite something that's been around for far longer and refined and compare it to the issue at hand. They're incomparable.

EDIT:
One thing I'd like to add, citing the length of time that Faustus has been around and how GGG hasn't gotten to developing or redefining him has 0 relevance. All you have to do is look at GGG's focus over the past two years since Poe 2 has been in development, and released to beta, Where their focus lies has Cleary been leaning toward PoE2. I mean, can anybody reasonably argue it's not why we had a year of Settlers League?

How often they say they're focused on one thing, but yet they shift to something else. Settlers was around for a year, obviously their focus was on PoE 2. So saying "oh this has been around forever and they didn't touch it", "they must think it's okay" or "in a the right place". That just means they haven't put their focus on it. Nothing more, nothing less out side of again, your presumptions..


Faustus may be in a stable place, doesn't mean he's in hiss final form.

EDIT:
I want to be very clear on one thing. I respect your opinion. You are entitled to it. At no point can I refute your opinion that is yours. What I must refute, is you presenting your opinion to me and other users on the forum, and supporting it only by your opinionated facts. That's the reason we are not seeing eye to eye. I have yet to see in any of our debates, actual factual information to support your opinion in your stance.

I put this in both threads b/c we're jumping back and forth.

"For No-Lifers Only?" Yeah, Not Quite.

Let’s just stop pretending.

Ignoring the fact that the league mechanic has become significantly more accessible with its integration into the core game, the current state of things is laughably generous. It’s never been easier, or cheaper to hit max-level workers. Gold is being thrown at you by default.
You can effortlessly run max-level farmers to send ships out like clockwork, raking in steady currency without breaking a sweat, all while a few dis-enchanters keep your dust reserves topped up in the background.

Gold really isn't the problem here to be honest.
You only need to run a small handful of somewhat juiced maps to oversustain gold for literal days. We’re talking maybe an hour of playtime, tops and you're already swimming in gold for days. And if your maps are even slightly juicier? Gold is practically getting launched at your head even more.

And let’s be honest, if you’re playing in the current league, you’re surfing a fresh wave of power creep, courtesy of how absurdly strong mercs are. The gearing requirements to actually engage with said content to make enough gold without hard work? Absolutely laughable.

So claiming you need to grind 18 hours a day just to interact with Kingsmarch? That was never really true, not even during Settlers. And now? That excuse is just even more plain outdated.

I have no problem agreeing that if you're running maps at the highest level, optimally farming gold, and only running settlers you're not going to have much issues sustaining.

The point has shifted somewhat in this thread that you start to feel constraints when you want to engage in more activity than just settlers, even when running farms specifically targeted to gold sustain. The majority of gameplay begins heavily shifting toward sustaining gold.

Here:
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3817166/page/1#p26263498

For example, tying to split your gold between trading with Faustus, and barely half way interacting with settlers, at least in my experience, I can't speak for how KaosuRyoko is running his settlers.

Points have been up and down this thread, and one linked in my previous post. If you care to see the point of those argument and refute them I'll be happy to debate further, as it is now I don't' really feel like writing it up, however should you want to challenge further I'll be happy to highlight key points for further discussion.

For now, a debate back and forth without clarification and understanding of the actual argument, .. Well it's not worth my time.

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JediWabbit#3091 wrote:

The point has shifted somewhat in this thread that you start to feel constraints when you want to engage in more activity than just settlers.

for example, tying to split your gold between trading with Faustus, and barely half way interacting with settlers.

Let’s be real for a second, with how much gold is getting tossed at you practically for free, it’s hard to call anything a "problem" anymore. You can run your settlers, convert any unwanted currency into something actually useful via the exchange, and keep the flow going endlessly.

Of course you’re going to feel bottlenecked if you’re running your map runners non-stop, have ships constantly deployed, burn through 100 recomb attempts a day, and throw gold at bulk purchases of things that already drop like candy, all via the exchange like crazy, all while expecting to keep settlers at over 100% engagement with little to no upkeep.

Yes, it takes a bit more effort to sustain that level of activity, but let’s not kid ourselves, it’s nowhere near the 18-hour-a-day grind some people are claiming, but obviously just a bit more than 1h as you do set yourself up for the extra work.

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VoidWhisperer42#5989 wrote:

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JediWabbit#3091 wrote:

The point has shifted somewhat in this thread that you start to feel constraints when you want to engage in more activity than just settlers.

for example, tying to split your gold between trading with Faustus, and barely half way interacting with settlers.

Let’s be real for a second, with how much gold is getting tossed at you practically for free, it’s hard to call anything a "problem" anymore. You can run your settlers, convert any unwanted currency into something actually useful via the exchange, and keep the flow going endlessly.

Of course you’re going to feel bottlenecked if you’re running your map runners non-stop, have ships constantly deployed, burn through 100 recomb attempts a day, and throw gold at bulk purchases of things that already drop like candy, all via the exchange like crazy, all while expecting to keep settlers at over 100% engagement with little to no upkeep.

Yes, it takes a bit more effort to sustain that level of activity, but let’s not kid ourselves, it’s nowhere near the 18-hour-a-day grind some people are claiming, but obviously just a bit more than 1h as you do set yourself up for the extra work.

I can't disagree with your points at all. You're 100% correct. I personally never claimed it takes 18 hours. I just personally claim that the burden is way more cumbersome, than maybe it should be, at the higher end of the spectrum, and less enjoyable if you want to run all content. For me, I personally have to run for 3 1/2 to 4 hours of maps for me to be able to craft my daily quota that that I feel comfortable with. To me, that's a bit much, and we're talking about one hour of crafting here, so 3 to 4 hours to get one hour crafting, Feels a little bit lop-sided to me. I just personally feel it needs a little bit of a tune, that's all.

btw: I am not maxing out settlers. I am talking about MAYBE four (4) plots, TWO (2) Disenchanters, and ONE (1) shipping lane.



I was getting hounded that I had to present solutions. So actually at the bottom of this post I did put three possible solutions in there that I don't know. I feel like a kinda, maybe, perhaps ideas worth consideration. Something the devs can take a look at or completely ignore. Whatever. I just didn't feel it was my job that I had to present a solution. But because, I was pretty much forced into it. I presented a few solutions.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3814633/page/5#p26262951

Again, I'm not claiming 18 hours, I'm just claiming it feels a little bit too much of A burden, give it another pass and possible tuning. Again, at the higher end, but not the top 1% mirror Tier crafter. I'm talking I'm somebody that spends maybe an hour a day crafting 3 or 4 chess pieces, two or three boots, you know, random gear that roughly I sell for 100 to 300 divines on trade, when I get lucky and hit. And that's not profit. That's what I sell for. There's a lot of R&G. And it costs a lot.

PSA: Unless you are heavily speccing into Kalguur stuff on your atlas tree, there is no point in hiring more than 1 miner and 1 smelter total.

It doesnt matter to which ore they are assigned, they will switch around automatically and take care of all ores eventually. Its more like setting the priority ore for them but thats about it.

Since you dont find that many veins, I never got higher lvl dudes either.
Lvl1 miner and smelter got the job done just fine.
Takes forever but again, its not like you find those veins everywhere.


This alone reduces your payroll significantly and makes the town far more manageable, even if you dont play all that much.
If you do sink more time into the game, this will still help upgrading everything else and not go broke all the time.