It's NOT a skill issue.

"

syansor#3871 wrote:

'Firstly, apologies for the hate you're all getting en masse, GGG.'

Do not be sorry if they delivered a defective product that you paid for... we paid for! They deserve the backslash.

The backlash has reached levels none of us should be comfortable with.

These guys are truly trying to make a quality game and suffering a lot of attacks to do so. I respect that, even if I don't agree with all of it. And who knows, maybe the professional gamed developers know better than we do in some cases. Most games are trash, POE 2 isn't, it's actually quite good.

This current hysteria is insane.

And as to my post, I mean YES it's KIND of a "Skill issue" in the sense that yes, if I spent a large ammount of time farming items, and researching builds and nitpicking tertiary defensive mechanics and practiced new attack patterns I could probably start pushing forward with little problem.

That's the point of this post. We're always discussing how certian mechanics create a skill gap and make it impossible to tune the game.

Things like mini stuns massively widen this gap and make the game a total downer to play if you don't gear for it.

Essentially the point is that the game can be fantiastically fun and challenging without these stuns. It's kind of well known that in games YOU DO NOT STUN THE PLAYER, most games don't for a reason. It removes the player agency, they are the ones who have fun, not artificial monsters.

A game can be challenging WITHOUT trash mobs being able to stun lock players in 99% of engagements.

This is the heart of the balancing problem. Not all challenges are equal. Abilities being clunky and having tons of conditionals gets so tiring. The game doesn't HAVE to have these issues on each and every skill. Cooldowns are tried and true.

I'm not even saying the game is terribly broken, i'm saying the game is 90% of the way there, if the abilities and mechanics had a bit of the excess design distilled a bit and the attacks were polished just a touch more to make them more usable and the initial excessive proc times were shortened, this game would be absolutely incredible. That's what's frustrating, the game is so close to being satisfying AND difficult. But they're just holding on to these really punishing mechanics. And not punsihing in a difficulty sort of way, they are punsihing in a forced discipline sort of way if that makes sense.

It's as if we're being forced to make a talent point sacrifice just to be able to use our abilities by getting stun resistance. Stun resistance isn't fun, no one gets excited by stun resitstance. Why is it such a huge component of the game?

"

Alexandra_Momo#4012 wrote:

"

syansor#3871 wrote:

'Firstly, apologies for the hate you're all getting en masse, GGG.'

Do not be sorry if they delivered a defective product that you paid for... we paid for! They deserve the backslash.

You paid to help them develop the game, you didnt pay to have a full access to an already completed game.

They simply could have waited 1 or 2 more years to develop the game in silence and then release it, but instead they were nice enough to include you into the development process. They listen to everyone's feedback, do many interviews, many dev post and fixes every day AND the game isn't even out yet.

NOBODY else does that, nobody else is that nice, but everyone is abusing and insulting them 24/7.

This is NOT the first game which has an early access, stop being dramatic

"

Schverika#2698 wrote:

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Those spikes that errupt out of the ground take WAY too long. I just tried another attack and it requires the enemies to be in some kind of fragile state, I don't even know what triggers that.

Earthquake right? Sometimes I put support gems to make it last longer. If you're using it to deal damage, you're missing the point. And that "fragile state" sounds like Boneshatter.

From the sounds of it, you want simple "press button, get satisfaction". You don't want to read, you just want zero complexity that it's impossible to misunderstand what skills do. Ok, that's your preference. Believing everyone shares your preference is the height of arrogance.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Do you guys find stuns from enemies to make the game more fun? Do you find that having many skills that are easily interuppted by most any mob to be a sense of progression that is fulfilling to negate?

Unironically: yes. Because posts like these prove there's skill involved in avoiding the downside. Makes complex skills feel earned and exclusive to use right. It's not "progression" to negate the downsides, it's knowing what to do to never let it apply to you: don't get hit. If you don't understand how to achieve that, warrior is too complex for you, play a simpler character like sorceress. Just because the class requires pure STR in-game doesn't mean you need zero INT to play the warrior right.

Genuine question. How many hours would you like to spend in a single league progressing your fist character to endgame? Like tier 0 pinnacle boss attempts. I just think you have a very different answer than a lot of people.

"

Schverika#2698 wrote:

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Those spikes that errupt out of the ground take WAY too long. I just tried another attack and it requires the enemies to be in some kind of fragile state, I don't even know what triggers that.

Earthquake right? Sometimes I put support gems to make it last longer. If you're using it to deal damage, you're missing the point. And that "fragile state" sounds like Boneshatter.

From the sounds of it, you want simple "press button, get satisfaction". You don't want to read, you just want zero complexity that it's impossible to misunderstand what skills do. Ok, that's your preference. Believing everyone shares your preference is the height of arrogance.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Do you guys find stuns from enemies to make the game more fun? Do you find that having many skills that are easily interuppted by most any mob to be a sense of progression that is fulfilling to negate?

Unironically: yes. Because posts like these prove there's skill involved in avoiding the downside. Makes complex skills feel earned and exclusive to use right. It's not "progression" to negate the downsides, it's knowing what to do to never let it apply to you: don't get hit. If you don't understand how to achieve that, warrior is too complex for you, play a simpler character like sorceress. Just because the class requires pure STR in-game doesn't mean you need zero INT to play the warrior right.

Many of us are getting REALLY tired of being told we're sub human because we don't like egnaging with overly punishing systems.

This is not the SAT's, games don't exist as some sort of measurement for intellectual capability.

There are MANY really terrible games out there that you could invest into and become the best at and lord that superiority over others with.

It's so infuriating being lectured time and time again how inadequate we are, when we are on these forums trying to help make this a more enjoyable and successful game.

Look, I don't HAVE to play this game. This is something meant to be a past time, it's something some of us would like to enjoy, and believe it or not, many of us like difficulty.

What we don't like is unnecessary punishment and arbitrary systems that exist simply to suck up our skill points. POE 2 can be a ruthlessly difficult game without all these arbitrary gear check systems.

Sure, I could dump all my points into stun resistance, I could spend hours in the shops and killing enemies keeping an eye out for stun resist on gear. But i'm not going to. I'm done.

There is a massive difference between exciting and powerful abilities and defensive metrics that make you excited to explore new things, it's something else entirely when the whole of the game demands you skill into stun resistance just to use key abilities. That's not depth, that's not a skill check, it's just bad design.

And the throngs of naysayers out here lecturing everyone how exceptional they are at these games because they can follow a build guide and spend 50 hours a week playing the game is getting really overplayed.

"

buttluvr2#5508 wrote:

Genuine question. How many hours would you like to spend in a single league progressing your fist character to endgame? Like tier 0 pinnacle boss attempts. I just think you have a very different answer than a lot of people.

In PoE 1? I'm happy getting to maps in 10 hours (egregiously slow, I know). I have little problem taking a month to get to t16 maps. Racing to reach pinnacle content ASAP does not motivate me, I'm more likely to have started 2~3 other characters in that time. "Getting to endgame" is not a meaningful goal for me, it so happens I have to get to endgame for some of my goals in a league.

I don't carry over time quota expectations to PoE 2. Different game, different philosophy. It's a sequel in the sense it's in the same narrative universe.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Many of us are getting REALLY tired of being told we're sub human because we don't like egnaging with overly punishing systems.

It's so infuriating being lectured time and time again how inadequate we are, when we are on these forums trying to help make this a more enjoyable and successful game.

So you can't take the same hate you dished out. Now I have wronged you, so I will apologise: I'm sorry for the words of vitriol. That doesn't make you feel better does it? So the same goes for your "sorry in advance" in your opening post. It's not going to make the devs feel better.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

This is not the SAT's, games don't exist as some sort of measurement for intellectual capability.

There are MANY really terrible games out there that you could invest into and become the best at and lord that superiority over others with.

Look, I don't HAVE to play this game. This is something meant to be a past time, it's something some of us would like to enjoy, and believe it or not, many of us like difficulty.

A video game that isn't measuring some capability may as well just be a non-interactive movie. Not all games need to be measuring intellect, some check patience, discipline and reflexes instead. Much of the drama in this early feedback is because 500k players came to try out the early access of a game that was sending mixed messages on what it's about. Each vocal player wants to impose their own vision of the game. Some visions just don't mesh well.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Sure, I could dump all my points into stun resistance, I could spend hours in the shops and killing enemies keeping an eye out for stun resist on gear. But i'm not going to. I'm done.

There is a massive difference between exciting and powerful abilities and defensive metrics that make you excited to explore new things, it's something else entirely when the whole of the game demands you skill into stun resistance just to use key abilities. That's not depth, that's not a skill check, it's just bad design.

I know other people in this thread were advising to get stun resistance. I consider it a trap. But you're done, I won't keep you.

"

Schverika#2698 wrote:

"

buttluvr2#5508 wrote:

Genuine question. How many hours would you like to spend in a single league progressing your fist character to endgame? Like tier 0 pinnacle boss attempts. I just think you have a very different answer than a lot of people.

In PoE 1? I'm happy getting to maps in 10 hours (egregiously slow, I know). I have little problem taking a month to get to t16 maps. Racing to reach pinnacle content ASAP does not motivate me, I'm more likely to have started 2~3 other characters in that time. "Getting to endgame" is not a meaningful goal for me, it so happens I have to get to endgame for some of my goals in a league.

I don't carry over time quota expectations to PoE 2. Different game, different philosophy. It's a sequel in the sense it's in the same narrative universe.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

Many of us are getting REALLY tired of being told we're sub human because we don't like egnaging with overly punishing systems.

It's so infuriating being lectured time and time again how inadequate we are, when we are on these forums trying to help make this a more enjoyable and successful game.

So you can't take the same hate you dished out. Now I have wronged you, so I will apologise: I'm sorry for the words of vitriol. That doesn't make you feel better does it? So the same goes for your "sorry in advance" in your opening post. It's not going to make the devs feel better.

What a pretentious, shallow ramble. You said nothing, and please don't put words in my mouth, I didn't attack anyone in my initial thread, you're seeking to demonize this post and paint me as an aggressor which is a common tactic in these forums. Grow up.

If you want an actual constructive conversation, feel free to discuss the merits of the stun resistance system. Otherwise you're just baiting me into the usual personal attacks. It's always the same with you types, acting petty and skirting the line of acceptable discourse and then smashing that report button the first chance you get. Petty.

"A video game that isn't measuring some capability may as well just be a non-interactive movie. Not all games need to be measuring intellect, some check patience, discipline and reflexes instead. Much of the drama in this early feedback is because 500k players came to try out the early access of a game that was sending mixed messages on what it's about. Each vocal player wants to impose their own vision of the game. Some visions just don't mesh well."

I agree with you completely here. And if you weren't acting so offended over someone elses tastes we could have a constructive conversation.

"

crazyfingers619#3901 wrote:

If you want an actual constructive conversation, feel free to discuss the merits of the stun resistance system.

Stun resistance is like PoE 1's "reduce enemy life regen" masteries. If your DPS is good enough, that system is irrelevant. If your DPS isn't, they're excellent crutches for a player to kill a rare with life regen.

The best way to not get stunned in PoE 2: don't get hit as I said earlier in this thread. The warrior has the tools available to achieve that difficult goal. A pure mace build can split their passive tree so a 1H mace + shield gets all the attack speed buffs while the 2H mace gets the attack speed nerfs in exchange for huge damage.

Let's walk through the 1v1 scenario. Armour Break swings faster than most melee monsters can, so you hit them then raise your shield. Invest your spirit into Magma Barrier and now blocking is also dealing damage to enemies. Then 0.2.0 made all STR-based shields capable of bashing to further damage. Now you have a system to get initial light hits in, simulating the opening moves of a clash.

After the opening quick strikes, the warrior creates an opening: simulated by getting the stun bar up. The warrior moves to exploit that moment of weakness, a bold move the target can no longer react to: this is the Boneshatter, an uppercut with a mace to the jaw. Alternatively, it's Rolling Slam calculated so the first hit finishes the stun that the second hit immediately capitalises. They don't do much at the start, simulating the opponent easily deflecting or dodging such a bold move if they're in perfect condition.

Now that the opponent is on the floor, the warrior can drop all pretense at defence to go for a killing blow. Initially that will be Perfect Strike. Later it's Sunder. These are big moves that should not be done if the enemy is in any condition to hit back. Getting interrupted by stuns is a sign the warrior misjudged the situation, thinking he is safe when he is not. Stun resistance is a clutch for the player to bulldoze through minor mistakes of judgement. Going all ham so you're never interrupted is player freedom to make a very lopsided build to fit their playstyle - I imagine most players would prefer to be killing faster than insulating so many mistakes.

But that's 1v1, most fights in PoE 2 are 1v10 or even 1v40. How's the warrior supposed to never get interrupted from the big moves when clearly outnumbered? Crowd control. Melee monsters don't hit you unless they're next to you. Earthquake slows monsters immediately, and incidentally happens to do an attack way later. That lets the warrior walk half a step back and put down a Shield Wall. Now the slowed enemies need to walk very far to come back to melee range. If the warrior needs more time, he can walk further back, put a second Earthquake down and a second Shield Wall. Alternatively, the warrior can add a Pin support gem and immobilise enemies: if the front half of a mob cannot move, the rear half are now obstructed. In a corridor, that means the warrior will not be hit for several seconds from melee monsters. A Shield Wall means most projectiles don't hit him either. That earns the time to do a Sunder or some other big flashy move that is prone to interruptions. Stun resistance here would be for overcoming one enemy getting past the gauntlet you make before you finish the slow wind-up. Same idea: an expensive, optional safety guard for a mistake.

What about a mob of ranged monsters? Why not run up to them with your shield held high (Shield Charge) then sidestepping around with your shield up (Resonating Shield) to damage them all? Or put up a Shield Wall, then lob Molten Blast at it so the shrapnel hits them while their projectiles don't reach you? I've yet to come across a combat situation where it's impossible to not get hit.


Now some players would prefer to be hitting like a truck with any melee move, caring only how flashy the attack is. The current PoE 2 design is trying to simulate a more grounded combat. Many players won't like this slow combat where each fight is a whole story of attacks. But it's a mistake to think all players will rejoice in seeing this design dismantled for a simple system.

Totally agree with @OP.

It's an overused word but "viscerality" in PoE2 is completely absent.
Old Blizzard's #1 Focus was to have visceral combat. That's why their games are still played today.
You press a button and the character does exaclty what you want, with a satisfying sound behind it. You really felt that you pressed this button now and something happend on your screen. Its really hard to describe but no other game comany comes close to it. And if anyone is interested how to make good combat from a game designer's perspective john staats wow diary is a fantastic read.


This is the first time GGG has the ability with the new rigs / graphics to really delve into making visceral combat possible.

Something feels off. We are constantly pushed around as players, we can never press our buttons when we want to , everything is slow. The bottom line is - ITS NOT FUN. This is the exact opposite of visceral combat.

Here is the thing. This slogfest is here to stay. Think of this. There is a massive desire for the next big ARPG and GGG made so much money with the preorders that they think they do the right thing. This is just how it works in a business. A couple of bad Steam reviews ? or angry redditors won't change the massive millions they made in POE2 EA. There is just a real desire for fresh arpgs out there.
Jonathan likes the new direction of the game and as long as money is rolling in, it's to stay this way. This is the new reality.

Maybe 10 years in the future there will be a new game company trying to make PoE1's spiritual sucessor and the cycle continues.

"

Schranzfranz#4329 wrote:

You press a button and the character does exaclty what you want, with a satisfying sound behind it. You really felt that you pressed this button now and something happend on your screen.

Something feels off. We are constantly pushed around as players, we can never press our buttons when we want to , everything is slow. The bottom line is - ITS NOT FUN. This is the exact opposite of visceral combat.

See, that's a concise, actionable way to phrase the feedback. I disagree that the PoE 2 mace skills fail to achieve visceral combat once the warrior gets going, but I can see what you mean when looking at the earlygame with its traps of "skills you think will give instant visceral satisfaction". At game start, I slap Martial Tempo on my normal attack for whatever weapon from drops or vendor has a single good damage prefix on it. Let's assume that was on a good 1H mace. I'll have a ranged weapon on the alternate weapon set and I'm taking down mobs within 1~2 hits by the time they reach me (as I've shot them while they came).

I block when I press the Raise Shield button at the right time, not when I get lucky with RNG. I get the target to 50% stun bar and I can press Boneshatter to get a satisfying crunch sound while the whole pack dies or gets prone to further Boneshatters. When it's 1v5 in Act 1, I've not felt combat is slow: I'm swinging fast and killing fast. If I'm not artificially restricting myself to just mace skills, there's many options for something fast: e.g. High Velocity shot to take advantage of a full armour break.

By the time I'm getting Lv 9 skill gems for Sunder, I can grab a bunch of attack speed nodes so 1H mace doing Perfect Strike is very fast and smacks hard. Then I split my passive tree so 2H mace does the big slow hits which feel very visceral provided you're not interrupted (see prior post for earning that opportunity). As Sunder gets a fixed +total attack time stat, it isn't affected much by all the reduced attack speed stats on the skill tree. So once I earn the opportunity to use Sunder, I get to see whole crowds die in one hit and rares get significantly dented (or outright die if I have a Seismic Cry to repeat and fully break armour to triple the damage).

But if you're relying on Earthquake and Rolling Slam in the earlygame, yeah it's not going to feel great. At least, unless you're animation cancelling the Rolling Slam to repeat the first attack until the stun is achieved.

I want everything now. Instant gratification. Zoomer brain rot has destroyed my brain so I have to have a game playing on my main monitor, a youtube video on my second monitor, and a 3rd monitor of constant changing videos of people making things with rapid edits in order to keep my attention.

I don't want to work for anything. I want all endgame rewards and accomplishments handed to me without any sort of though or effort on my part. If I die it's the devs fault and bad game design. I demand changes be made so I do not die. I want a power fantasy. I want to destroy all mobs in a matter of seconds and movement skills to zoom all over the map doing trillions of damage per second.

I want all death punishments removed so I can speed run all content in 3 days and then complain there is not enough content in the game on the forums on day 4.

I deserve to be level 100 and hit that in 4 days while I follow a build guide of a broken build I found on youtube. I AM A GOD AND IF YOU STAND IN MY WAY I WILL DESTROY YOUR COMPANY.