I wish I had never supported you

"

adam_law#9913 wrote:

1. There's an Economy

2. There are 3rd party services and sites for this Economy. People are actually paying real-world money to host these sites and services.

Is it out of altruism, OR PROFIT? You tell us.

3. There's even an in-game currency exchange for this Economy

4. If anyone wants to effectively participate in this Economy, it will require stash tabs to organize everything that is needed, and extra stash tabs are bought with real money. Don't get started with the in-game MTXcoin.

If anyone says that the starting tabs are enough to profit in the Economy, THEY ARE LYING.

5. Anything in the game can be bought via the Economy, for the right price. These currencies are not "pure" i.e., they are not entirely generated by the player base's play but is also supplemented by the game itself i.e., "printing currencies" for the currency exchange. Does anyone seriously think that the CE only buys and sells currencies that come from gameplay? What is this? Blockchain? Please.

The CE is a convenience but it's also one of the things people are saying here about mechanics that drive the Economy and paying / playing to "win".

6. There are "carry" services being offered to less-skilled players for the price of not only divines and exalts, but real money. Isn't that "paying to win"?

7. Therefore, with all these points stated, PoE 1 and 2 are definitely pay to win. Success in the game system is not self-contained to playing it, being rewarded with experience and loot to drive getting even better loot and skills. Nay. Endgame growth is mainly driven by the acquisition of power through trade and trade can only happen effectively with the purchase of QoL items like stash tabs and gear sold by other players. Getting any of those takes time and real-world money.

I bet most of those complaining about PoE2 being p2w are people who have to pay for their own electricity, have responsibilities like family and kids, and only have a few hours each day, or even weeks, to play, making playtime very precious.

On the flipside of the coin, I see those who are on the opposite camp as having all the time in the world, have lots of money to pay to play and so, were able to trade through the obvious walls and ceilings the game has around those who don't trade.

I should know some of this. I live with my best friend who stays home all day and plays PoE1 and 2. His wife brings in the bread.

He has 5 characters in PoE1 at level 90-100. 2 characters in PoE2 at level 90. All in standard. All with decent gear due to trading. He has a shit ton of tabs for all these characters and trading.

3 of these characters were leveled to 95 and 100 just in the last season. Go figure how he did that. He more or less one shots the screen on both games.


I have a level 80 PoE 2 SSF mercenary with whatever scuff gear I can put together from drops and the currencies I collect. I've probably mastered most of the boss and mob mechanics to beat them with mechanics, not character power.

My friend hasn't and he admits it. Much of his "wins" come from absurd amounts of energy shield, uniques and high-tiered items that melt enemy life.

So when I see the usual comments about "Don't die" or "The game is telling you you're playing badly." I label people like these as idiots.

"

So when I see the usual comments about "Don't die" or "The game is telling you you're playing badly." I label people like these as idiots.

"

gX_kiD#0166 wrote:

In the same boat as OP.

I tried POE1 a few times, was aware of GGG's stellar reputation among gamers, and then Jonathan Rogers even said the game runs "solid & smooth at 40fps on a Steamdeck". So I bought the early access pack.

Then I find out the game runs like sh*t on the Deck, GGG is fully owned by China, and to add insult to injury, they can't even be bothered to communicate with their own customers. At all.

This is the most pathetic early access I've ever had the displeasure to be part of, and I'd happily take a refund and never look back at this point.

"

_rt_#4636 wrote:

You can also go check Last Epoch.
- You can have "unlimited" stash tabs
- All tabs are premium
- Fully functional tab affinity (to the level of having item mod affinities)
- Built-in loot filter creator
- Mostly-deterministic crafting (no gambling)
- Item drops are identified (devs don't force you into wasting your time picking up trash and identifying it)
- More transparent development roadmap
- Game has full offline play (so even if EHG closes the game, you'd still be able to at least back up a copy and play the last patch forever)
- Game costs a little over an EA key
- Extra monetization is only for cosmetics so far

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

First last epoch is actually a fully released game. Second its Buy 2 play which POE 2 wont be. Its a bad comparison.

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

They are the least invasive, least predatory monetizer around, and it's not close.

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

least invasive

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

least predatory

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

and it's not close.

"

Akedomo#3573 wrote:

"

Oinkaments#6390 wrote:

You guys are acting like this is Gacha. POE 2 is not pay to win at all. I only spent money to buy the game and Will never need to pay a dime to keep playing it. I can crush any end game content blindfolded. You guys must be trolling and trolling very hard that is. Seriously, the hot takes I'm seeing are out of this world.

We aren't talking about your personal perspective and experience.

I too, Have no issue spending a small amount of money and just playing the game. This isn't the case for other people. The game was designed in such a way that people with addictive tendencies can get very hooked on it.

People aren't claiming it's Pay 2 Win. Even though it is, in some minor ways.

That's not the issue that's being discussed.

What is being discussed is that People are claiming it's using the same tactics that many other games to hook players, and make money off them.

Before you go getting upset at a message. Pause and think about what was written.

"

Icesinnox#6517 wrote:

The RNG is the only reason people play these games for more than a few weeks. IN terms of combat it's just point and click. There's nothing deep going on here. And slowing down the gameplay and making it so that you have to CC a few enemies and dodge around a bit more etc. Isn't going to make this a deep video game in terms of combat mechanics.

"

GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

What are you even saying. It does not make any sense.
Well for some it might do, but its mostly nonsense. ARPGs are mostly like MMORPGs and those have loots and drop RNG since they were created. Otherwise the game would be boring really fast. People need something to strife for otherwise a game would not be successfull. From Archeage to WOW to Black Desert to New World. Every game like this has RNG on loot. That gives the core Playerbase of a game something to do. You wanna give different Players different things to do. Some Players search for the perfect roll on Items. Some players wanna get the richest through trade. Some just want PvP. Others might only like the story and others a challenge.

A game is more than just a casino simulator. Some person might actually just play through the Campaign in Path of Exile 2 and enjoy it. Other peoples enjoy the Endgame the most and finding the equipment and getting stronger.
Others might just want to trade and craft. Others want to create new broken builds. Other might want to level every class to level 100.

You reduce a game to a single thing which you simply cant do.

No, it's not a real ARPG, it just looks like one. I could break it down for you, but that would also probably be nonsense to you. I'm not surprised that this content seems like nonsense to you, that's what happens when you get brainwashed.

Here's how the game goes, according to the design. Lack of decent, progress-allowing drops and meaningful crafting pushes you to the crappy trade solution (or RMT, which GGG does not seem to mind for some reason), crappy trade will make some realize they can get OP with some gear, get OP gear and cruise through game, rinse and repeat. No challenge, just zooming. Along the way, a player starts wondering how they should build, looks up latest OP builds, adjust character, continues zooming. Now that they know how to play the game, just get to end game, 0-1 button delete build and watch all the cool pixels drop. Casino simulator, now they're a gambling addict and don't even know it. They THINK they are playing an ARPG, but it's not. This game is not fun if you try to play it AS IF it were an ARPG, as people here are trying to point out.

People can try to do what they want in the game, but if you don't play it how it's designed to be played, you will not get the full experience. You probably know that already. If you like what you do, fine, enjoy, but don't expect normal people to settle for a twisted version of what an ARPG is and demand that this game at least allow that.

If GGG were smart about it, they would tweak it to give a more authentic ARPG game mode, and see which players net them the most money. I would wager that the authentic side would, because there wouldn't be a need for RMT, therefore more direct money from appreciative authentic fans (not addicts). I would even pay a nominal fee for additions/expansions (leagues), and others have said the same.

The elitism is really getting tired, though, constant strawmanning, drama-queening, and acting like they don't know the formula I described above. And, use that along with the esc/logout and other exploits I probably haven't even heard here, since you probably have to be in those special clubs. We see right through you all. You are the ones who don't "understand"...that you are being played.

"

_rt_#4636 wrote:

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

First last epoch is actually a fully released game. Second its Buy 2 play which POE 2 wont be. Its a bad comparison.

Completely ignored the last line...
But let's play this game. Let's compare $35 on F2P PoE with $35 on Last Epoch

$35 on PoE:
- Ability to trade (1 upgrade to premium tab)
- Currency tab
- Map tab
- 110 extra coins to get more tabs or upgrade more tabs to premium
- Being under GGG's whim on whether or not your tabs will actually be useful in the future (e.g. Essence tab is useless and unnecessary now, would gladly exchange it back for the coins I've spent on it in the past)
- Having no clue what is the game's development roadmap and what's going to be added and how much more MTX will be "QoL" except it's almost mandatory due to deliberately poor game design
- Braindead 1-button gambling-grinding videogame that has no respect for your time

$35 on LE:
- Ability to trade
- No need for currency tab
- No need for map tab
- "Unlimited" premium stash tabs
- Fully functional tab affinity (to the level of mod and mod tier affinities)
- Built-in loot filter creator
- Identified item drops (no wasting your time picking up trash and identifying it)
- Button to automatically organize your inventory or stash tab
- 1-click pickup whenever a loot fountain of "currency-like" items drop
- Auto gold pickup
- More transparent roadmap
- Full offline play available (EHG can't take the game away from you anymore)
- Cosmetics-only monetization (so far)
- Videogame that respects the time you invest playing

Yep... it's not close indeed

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

They are the least invasive, least predatory monetizer around, and it's not close.

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

least invasive

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

least predatory

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

and it's not close.

"

ShiyoKozuki#4168 wrote:

"

GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

What are you even saying. It does not make any sense.
Well for some it might do, but its mostly nonsense. ARPGs are mostly like MMORPGs and those have loots and drop RNG since they were created. Otherwise the game would be boring really fast. People need something to strife for otherwise a game would not be successfull. From Archeage to WOW to Black Desert to New World. Every game like this has RNG on loot. That gives the core Playerbase of a game something to do. You wanna give different Players different things to do. Some Players search for the perfect roll on Items. Some players wanna get the richest through trade. Some just want PvP. Others might only like the story and others a challenge.

A game is more than just a casino simulator. Some person might actually just play through the Campaign in Path of Exile 2 and enjoy it. Other peoples enjoy the Endgame the most and finding the equipment and getting stronger.
Others might just want to trade and craft. Others want to create new broken builds. Other might want to level every class to level 100.

You reduce a game to a single thing which you simply cant do.

No, it's not a real ARPG, it just looks like one. I could break it down for you, but that would also probably be nonsense to you. I'm not surprised that this content seems like nonsense to you, that's what happens when you get brainwashed.

Here's how the game goes, according to the design. Lack of decent, progress-allowing drops and meaningful crafting pushes you to the crappy trade solution (or RMT, which GGG does not seem to mind for some reason), crappy trade will make some realize they can get OP with some gear, get OP gear and cruise through game, rinse and repeat. No challenge, just zooming. Along the way, a player starts wondering how they should build, looks up latest OP builds, adjust character, continues zooming. Now that they know how to play the game, just get to end game, 0-1 button delete build and watch all the cool pixels drop. Casino simulator, now they're a gambling addict and don't even know it. They THINK they are playing an ARPG, but it's not. This game is not fun if you try to play it AS IF it were an ARPG, as people here are trying to point out.

People can try to do what they want in the game, but if you don't play it how it's designed to be played, you will not get the full experience. You probably know that already. If you like what you do, fine, enjoy, but don't expect normal people to settle for a twisted version of what an ARPG is and demand that this game at least allow that.

If GGG were smart about it, they would tweak it to give a more authentic ARPG game mode, and see which players net them the most money. I would wager that the authentic side would, because there wouldn't be a need for RMT, therefore more direct money from appreciative authentic fans (not addicts). I would even pay a nominal fee for additions/expansions (leagues), and others have said the same.

The elitism is really getting tired, though, constant strawmanning, drama-queening, and acting like they don't know the formula I described above. And, use that along with the esc/logout and other exploits I probably haven't even heard here, since you probably have to be in those special clubs. We see right through you all. You are the ones who don't "understand"...that you are being played.

Gambling addicts will be more money because the streamers who play are that.
The gambling addicts are also more easily manipulated through FOMO supporter packs.

I miss when video games were an art where you made the game you wanted to play and not a business where every decision is based around the revenue arrow going green to make the investor Gods happy.

"

_rt_#4636 wrote:

"

Wo0olfgaNg_#7323 wrote:

Why do you say that?

- Game lacks basic QoL features
- Artificially created time sinks and difficulty
- Almost the whole game is based on lottery/gambling mechanics (so you understand why so many people "love" to grind in this game)
- Basic QoL is gated behind MTX (currency tab)
- Being able to sell items to players is not built into the game and requires MTX (or spamming trade channel, or 3rd party software which I'm not sure whether or not still works)
- Shady tactics to sell map tabs in PoE 2 (waited 2.5 months to release it, so newer players probably had already spent their 300 coins)
- Artificially created necessity for more MTX as the game develops (old special tabs in PoE 1)
- Every new league comes with a set of FOMO-packs (don't miss out, available only this league)