I wish I had never supported you

"

GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

What are you even saying. It does not make any sense.
Well for some it might do, but its mostly nonsense. ARPGs are mostly like MMORPGs and those have loots and drop RNG since they were created. Otherwise the game would be boring really fast. People need something to strife for otherwise a game would not be successfull. From Archeage to WOW to Black Desert to New World. Every game like this has RNG on loot. That gives the core Playerbase of a game something to do. You wanna give different Players different things to do. Some Players search for the perfect roll on Items. Some players wanna get the richest through trade. Some just want PvP. Others might only like the story and others a challenge.

A game is more than just a casino simulator. Some person might actually just play through the Campaign in Path of Exile 2 and enjoy it. Other peoples enjoy the Endgame the most and finding the equipment and getting stronger.
Others might just want to trade and craft. Others want to create new broken builds. Other might want to level every class to level 100.

You reduce a game to a single thing which you simply cant do.

No, it's not a real ARPG, it just looks like one. I could break it down for you, but that would also probably be nonsense to you. I'm not surprised that this content seems like nonsense to you, that's what happens when you get brainwashed.

Here's how the game goes, according to the design. Lack of decent, progress-allowing drops and meaningful crafting pushes you to the crappy trade solution (or RMT, which GGG does not seem to mind for some reason), crappy trade will make some realize they can get OP with some gear, get OP gear and cruise through game, rinse and repeat. No challenge, just zooming. Along the way, a player starts wondering how they should build, looks up latest OP builds, adjust character, continues zooming. Now that they know how to play the game, just get to end game, 0-1 button delete build and watch all the cool pixels drop. Casino simulator, now they're a gambling addict and don't even know it. They THINK they are playing an ARPG, but it's not. This game is not fun if you try to play it AS IF it were an ARPG, as people here are trying to point out.

People can try to do what they want in the game, but if you don't play it how it's designed to be played, you will not get the full experience. You probably know that already. If you like what you do, fine, enjoy, but don't expect normal people to settle for a twisted version of what an ARPG is and demand that this game at least allow that.

If GGG were smart about it, they would tweak it to give a more authentic ARPG game mode, and see which players net them the most money. I would wager that the authentic side would, because there wouldn't be a need for RMT, therefore more direct money from appreciative authentic fans (not addicts). I would even pay a nominal fee for additions/expansions (leagues), and others have said the same.

The elitism is really getting tired, though, constant strawmanning, drama-queening, and acting like they don't know the formula I described above. And, use that along with the esc/logout and other exploits I probably haven't even heard here, since you probably have to be in those special clubs. We see right through you all. You are the ones who don't "understand"...that you are being played.

Gambling addicts will be more money because the streamers who play are that.
The gambling addicts are also more easily manipulated through FOMO supporter packs.

I miss when video games were an art where you made the game you wanted to play and not a business where every decision is based around the revenue arrow going green to make the investor Gods happy.

You bought early access.

So you can buy currency tab or whatever tabs you want.

I think I've lifetime spent under $50 and I have tons of tabs, almost every tab imaginable except some of the legacy league stuff where I'm not shelling out money for a special tab for xyz league item (cough cough blight).

IT's a pretty fun game. Needs some work and balance for sure.

But the better meta builds are very fun and there's enough to keep a player busy for a month or two.

Key word early access. It's not done yet. This might be 25% of the finished game.

"

crappy trade solution (or RMT, which GGG does not seem to mind for some reason)

Probably because that became a long time GGG strategy: new stuff every 3 months and retaining playerbase for a week or so, and after that they don't care about anything at all (bad ecomony, good economy, RMT economy or not, bots or no bots) as ppl buy majority of support packs only in first days. This Chris Wilson said himself.

I think GGG could earn much more if they worked hard on making multiplayer good, because in good multiplayer people pay a lot for cosmetics - to show it off in parties. But GGG never succeeded in that. Game is 85% solo.

However, POE2 has all ingredients, especially so with combo skills that work not only between personal skills but even between players - this is a great new feature in the genre, too bad it is completely lost behind terrible POE1-like gameplay. If they slow the game significantly, interesting multiplayer will have a chance.

"

ShiyoKozuki#4168 wrote:

Gambling addicts will be more money because the streamers who play are that.
The gambling addicts are also more easily manipulated through FOMO supporter packs.

I miss when video games were an art where you made the game you wanted to play and not a business where every decision is based around the revenue arrow going green to make the investor Gods happy.

When someone goies through your recent posts, they could think youre an addict of shittalking. Half of your posts consist of literally just crapping onto Path of Exile 2 and GGG.
I do criticise them a lot, Map Stash Tab is mostly useless. Their patch cycle is bad. Their boss design is bad. As some example. But you are simply trashtalking in a forum. You add no value to any discussion with that.

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

"

Avanglion#5465 wrote:

_rt_#4636 knows what he/she's talking about. Read and think.

No he does not. He said himself he barely played any MMO besides Guild Wars 2 and thats a pay 2 play MMO.
Furthermore he states he only played some PVP Live Service games. In PvP Games you basically only can monetize Cosmetics. Often they also monetize more EXP.
If you monetize anything else than cosmetics its pay 2 win.

Everyone who says Path of Exile is Pay 2 Win is incorrect. Its not.
Furthermore for a f2p game like Path of Exile its a pretty fair monetization. Yes it does have practices to get people to buy which in my opinion is fine. Ive seen way worse than Path of Exile in that regard. Most stuff Path of Exile sells in microtransactions is Cosmetics.
The stash tabs in Path of Exile are also Account wide. That is not a given. Other games literally make you buy inventory slots for every single character you play for it to be a fucntional character. Then the game also sells cosmetics/outfits that give you advantages in the game like more exp. Then basically subscruiptions for more exp.
That btw. isnt actually pay 2 win. You dont pay so you can win. Its not about who pays the most wins more. Thats not the case.

1. There's an Economy

2. There are 3rd party services and sites for this Economy. People are actually paying real-world money to host these sites and services.

Is it out of altruism, OR PROFIT? You tell us.

3. There's even an in-game currency exchange for this Economy

4. If anyone wants to effectively participate in this Economy, it will require stash tabs to organize everything that is needed, and extra stash tabs are bought with real money. Don't get started with the in-game MTXcoin.

If anyone says that the starting tabs are enough to profit in the Economy, THEY ARE LYING.

5. Anything in the game can be bought via the Economy, for the right price. These currencies are not "pure" i.e., they are not entirely generated by the player base's play but is also supplemented by the game itself i.e., "printing currencies" for the currency exchange. Does anyone seriously think that the CE only buys and sells currencies that come from gameplay? What is this? Blockchain? Please.

The CE is a convenience but it's also one of the things people are saying here about mechanics that drive the Economy and paying / playing to "win".

6. There are "carry" services being offered to less-skilled players for the price of not only divines and exalts, but real money. Isn't that "paying to win"?

7. Therefore, with all these points stated, PoE 1 and 2 are definitely pay to win. Success in the game system is not self-contained to playing it, being rewarded with experience and loot to drive getting even better loot and skills. Nay. Endgame growth is mainly driven by the acquisition of power through trade and trade can only happen effectively with the purchase of QoL items like stash tabs and gear sold by other players. Getting any of those takes time and real-world money.

I bet most of those complaining about PoE2 being p2w are people who have to pay for their own electricity, have responsibilities like family and kids, and only have a few hours each day, or even weeks, to play, making playtime very precious.

On the flipside of the coin, I see those who are on the opposite camp as having all the time in the world, have lots of money to pay to play and so, were able to trade through the obvious walls and ceilings the game has around those who don't trade.

I should know some of this. I live with my best friend who stays home all day and plays PoE1 and 2. His wife brings in the bread.

He has 5 characters in PoE1 at level 90-100. 2 characters in PoE2 at level 90. All in standard. All with decent gear due to trading. He has a shit ton of tabs for all these characters and trading.

3 of these characters were leveled to 95 and 100 just in the last season. Go figure how he did that. He more or less one shots the screen on both games.


I have a level 80 PoE 2 SSF mercenary with whatever scuff gear I can put together from drops and the currencies I collect. I've probably mastered most of the boss and mob mechanics to beat them with mechanics, not character power.

My friend hasn't and he admits it. Much of his "wins" come from absurd amounts of energy shield, uniques and high-tiered items that melt enemy life.

So when I see the usual comments about "Don't die" or "The game is telling you you're playing badly." I label people like these as idiots.

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

"

GeoFruck#1167 wrote:

"

Gang5ter15#1071 wrote:

What are you even saying. It does not make any sense.
Well for some it might do, but its mostly nonsense. ARPGs are mostly like MMORPGs and those have loots and drop RNG since they were created. Otherwise the game would be boring really fast. People need something to strife for otherwise a game would not be successfull. From Archeage to WOW to Black Desert to New World. Every game like this has RNG on loot. That gives the core Playerbase of a game something to do. You wanna give different Players different things to do. Some Players search for the perfect roll on Items. Some players wanna get the richest through trade. Some just want PvP. Others might only like the story and others a challenge.

A game is more than just a casino simulator. Some person might actually just play through the Campaign in Path of Exile 2 and enjoy it. Other peoples enjoy the Endgame the most and finding the equipment and getting stronger.
Others might just want to trade and craft. Others want to create new broken builds. Other might want to level every class to level 100.

You reduce a game to a single thing which you simply cant do.

No, it's not a real ARPG, it just looks like one. I could break it down for you, but that would also probably be nonsense to you. I'm not surprised that this content seems like nonsense to you, that's what happens when you get brainwashed.

Here's how the game goes, according to the design. Lack of decent, progress-allowing drops and meaningful crafting pushes you to the crappy trade solution (or RMT, which GGG does not seem to mind for some reason), crappy trade will make some realize they can get OP with some gear, get OP gear and cruise through game, rinse and repeat. No challenge, just zooming. Along the way, a player starts wondering how they should build, looks up latest OP builds, adjust character, continues zooming. Now that they know how to play the game, just get to end game, 0-1 button delete build and watch all the cool pixels drop. Casino simulator, now they're a gambling addict and don't even know it. They THINK they are playing an ARPG, but it's not. This game is not fun if you try to play it AS IF it were an ARPG, as people here are trying to point out.

People can try to do what they want in the game, but if you don't play it how it's designed to be played, you will not get the full experience. You probably know that already. If you like what you do, fine, enjoy, but don't expect normal people to settle for a twisted version of what an ARPG is and demand that this game at least allow that.

If GGG were smart about it, they would tweak it to give a more authentic ARPG game mode, and see which players net them the most money. I would wager that the authentic side would, because there wouldn't be a need for RMT, therefore more direct money from appreciative authentic fans (not addicts). I would even pay a nominal fee for additions/expansions (leagues), and others have said the same.

The elitism is really getting tired, though, constant strawmanning, drama-queening, and acting like they don't know the formula I described above. And, use that along with the esc/logout and other exploits I probably haven't even heard here, since you probably have to be in those special clubs. We see right through you all. You are the ones who don't "understand"...that you are being played.

Not a real ARPG? Huh

Obviously, he's a purist but I'm sure you know that but you're busy just being an ash haha.

For what I am learning in the last months about tabs, I wouldn't call POE 2 "Pay to Win" nor "Pay for Convenience".

I would call POE2 "Pay because Inconvenience".

+1

"

_rt_#4636 wrote:

"

Wo0olfgaNg_#7323 wrote:

Why do you say that?

- Game lacks basic QoL features
- Artificially created time sinks and difficulty
- Almost the whole game is based on lottery/gambling mechanics (so you understand why so many people "love" to grind in this game)
- Basic QoL is gated behind MTX (currency tab)
- Being able to sell items to players is not built into the game and requires MTX (or spamming trade channel, or 3rd party software which I'm not sure whether or not still works)
- Shady tactics to sell map tabs in PoE 2 (waited 2.5 months to release it, so newer players probably had already spent their 300 coins)
- Artificially created necessity for more MTX as the game develops (old special tabs in PoE 1)
- Every new league comes with a set of FOMO-packs (don't miss out, available only this league)

PoE's monetization model is one of the most disrespectful I've ever seen in gaming.

Subscription? Here's the game, pay to play

P2W? You put money, you get stronger. Whoever has a deeper wallet wins

Gacha? Here are the odds, drops are guaranteed based on the odds too

PoE? Our game deliberately lacks the bare minimum, but don't worry, we sell it on our MTX shop (but don't get your hopes up, even the MTX version isn't super good)

Currency tab? Should've been built into PoE 2 and be able to carry literally anything you can buy/sell on Currency Exchange
Make a tab public with a set price? Should've been built into PoE 2
Map tab? Should've been built into PoE 2 with the option to upgrade for more slots, added functionality like advanced affinity, etc
Tab affinity? Should've been built into PoE 2, with premium tabs having advanced affinity functionality (the current affinity sucks and only works for a handful of item types like currency and essences)
Supporter packs? Discounted price during the league, more expensive once the league ends

PS: At this point, it's becoming clearer that PoE 2 is just a substitute for PoE 1: the previous game became too bloated, so they just created a "new game" to repeat the same cycle they did with PoE 1 the past 6-8 years.

PS 2: Inb4 - the game is F2P, if you don't like it, don't play and don't give GGG money.
Yes, that's exactly what I did regarding PoE 1 and what I'm doing now regarding PoE 2. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. And shame on me for giving GGG the benefit of the doubt with PoE 2's EA.

I am livid at GGG and if you look at my post history you will see plenty of posts as such, but complaining about the mtx model of GGG is truly, truly absurd. They are the least invasive, least predatory monetizer around, and it's not close.

You can get every tab you will ever need for about $30 and you never need to spend a cent past that. I'm interested to see how you think the company should monetise at all if these things aren't reasonable. The most recent PoE1 leagues came with built-in currency storage rather than releasing extra tabs, and the vast majority aren't needed at all.

Should they have had the map tab updated for PoE2 prior to launch? Probably.. but only because the game sucks without it. There is barely anything to spend credits on in PoE2, so pretending like they did it intentionally to suck the credits out before releasing it is absurdism. They could have just not put credits on the early access packs at all and they still would have sold as many as they did, so it's hard to make a reasonable argument they did it out of a desire to take more money.

The only reason I have ever given GGG money is precisely because their model is not overly predatory. I don't like loot boxes or the delayed release of their contents, but most other things they have done to monetise are completely reasonable, and the minimum cost for full function in the game is absurdly low (and hasn't risen for a long time).

"

Lord_Arami#5382 wrote:

For what I am learning in the last months about tabs, I wouldn't call POE 2 "Pay to Win" nor "Pay for Convenience".

I would call POE2 "Pay because Inconvenience".

Yep.

That's 40% of my issue with GGG's strategies.

The other 40% is the excessive gambling-like designs to keep players hooked to the game loop.

The other 20% is the fact this game has near-zero value as a videogame.
PoE is kind of like Black Jack: go to Google, learn the best strategy, braindead implementation of a checklist, repeat it forever.

This game can literally be played at random: teach a monkey to smash Q and WASD and it'll eventually clear a map. A half-assed Python script you can cook with chat GPT can full-auto clear maps and pick up loot by simply sending random inputs to the game and then seeking the loot on the ground.

"

Pathological#1188 wrote:

They are the least invasive, least predatory monetizer around, and it's not close.

Are you also from that gangster kid's dimension?
The monetization is so extremely invasive that it invaded the core game's design to force you into HAVING to buy at least some MTX to properly play the actual game (because campaign is like 5-10% of your total playtime).

Proper selling your items to other players? Sorry, premium-tab-users only
Being able to properly store currency you'll usually want to have dozens/hundreds of each? Sorry, currency-tab-users only
Being able to properly store the endgame's core system items? Sorry, map-tab-users only

I have zero issues with the game having only the minimum for a F2P player to fully enjoy the game and, if the game actually has quality to it, for it to monetize on extra QoL stuff or cosmetics.

I have zero issues with a game having a price tag, being a full-content product and monetizing on extras.

I have zero issues with a game being F2P, fully functional, and having money-for-power monetization.

I have zero issues with a game being a subscription service and even monetizing on extra cosmetics.

What I have an issue with is a game being deliberately designed to lack the basics in a subtle way, hooking players with gambling systems instead of fun, and then selling basic videogame features as MTX. It doesn't matter if it's F2P or not.

You saying it's not even close to other games is also a comically misinformed, since there are a multitude of F2P games that monetize solely on cosmetics...

You can also go check Last Epoch.
- You can have "unlimited" stash tabs
- All tabs are premium
- Fully functional tab affinity (to the level of having item mod affinities)
- Built-in loot filter creator
- Mostly-deterministic crafting (no gambling)
- Item drops are identified (devs don't force you into wasting your time picking up trash and identifying it)
- More transparent development roadmap
- Game has full offline play (so even if EHG closes the game, you'd still be able to at least back up a copy and play the last patch forever)
- Game costs a little over an EA key
- Extra monetization is only for cosmetics so far

And please, don't BS me with "PoE is F2P, you paid for EA to support the development of PoE 2". We all paid to have early access to the game, period.
GGG is owned by Tencent and their financials up to 2023 are public. They've had a 30-50% EBT margin every year for years now. They could've shut down PoE 1 completely in 2024 and would still have money to develop PoE 2 until at least 2028-2030 with zero extra revenue.
PoE 2, at this point, has a price tag for a closed beta, so it SHOULD be compared to any other game with a price tag on it.