Unpopular opinion : I like the crafting system of PoE2

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

OP, I appreciate your well-written feedback. I disagree with most of it, but I recognize that you truly did write your thoughts and opinions well, and backed them up with reasonable claims.

I have a few counters though:
1) You claim a few times in responses that crafting in PoE 2 is better than spamming alts in PoE1, because you pick up items instead. I would ask: what stopped you doing exactly this in PoE 1? It was always available...no one ever forced your hand to alt spam. There was a reason: the natural development of the game will continue to make drops more and more obsolete. PoE 2 offers us no counter to this natural progression.

Thats a good question. Personnaly I dont really use to play the same game, specially a "solo" one for a long time. I played PoE1 between 2013-2018 and just made a character in 2022 and I felt bored by the gameplay.
About the natural development which make drops more and more obsolete, its true for every game, specially for PoE1 with deterministic way to craft. I mean, the more random loot are, longer would be the game cause players would be looking for perfect gear. So drops would be less obsolete in PoE2 than they are in poE1.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

2) You claim (recently) that exalts were used a LOT in crafting in PoE 1. This is true BUT you left out a huge caveat: eternal orbs existed. Exalts were only ever used BECAUSE eternal orbs were also used in tandem. If the eternal orb didn't exist, exalts would be used but we'd be in the same problem with PoE 2 crafting....lack of control and a complete reliance on luck. Luck or brick...move on to next item. That isn't crafting.

I dont know the ratio between eternal orb and exalted orb, maybe 1 for 1000 ? In 3000h playing PoE1, I didnt get 1 eternal orb so... Your example is really an anomaly and again, it concerns only a very small minority of players who could craft with it...
And again, I dont know why for you, crafting around ONE item but for thousand of tries, is better than crafting around multiple items for dozens of time. I really cant figure out... Is it because its more simple to loot 1 item to craft around and you are bored to loot multiple items ??? In this game, why dont you ask GGG to have just every max lvl item in a shop, that you would buy to craft around, and another shop with omen, essence and stuff to craft ??? I mean, if looting is boring in a ARPG, what are we supposing to do in such game ???
I mean sometimes I have the feeling we are playing a different game. Im excited to see some rare item looted, specially with high tier, cause I know I could have a good stuff. Same with exalted cause its opportunity for me to craft around some good base I have on my stash. But I have the feeling for players, only divine orb is a pleasant loot for them, they dont care of anything else. In this situation, I can feel how bored you should be playing this game...

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

3) you wrote "So right now, craft is pretty simple and straight forward, with a part of luck and thats good imo. I think its a good base to have a better craft system than PoE1 is for example."
But....as you also explained later, this is precisely the same base that PoE 1 started with, and changed course for very important reasons: simple and straightforward only works as long as the gear and mods remain simple and straightforward. However, they won't. They simply can't. Also...you claim that only "part" of the process is luck. Transuting = luck. Aug = luck. Regal = luck. Exalt = luck. Chaos = luck. Divine = the only option that has somewhat controllable "luck" via knowing the odds of improvement. The entire process of "crafting" in PoE 2 is currently luck, from dropping the item to finishing the item. There isn't a single part of crafting that isn't entirely reliant on luck.

Yeah you are right, and I totally understand people that are saying we need some tools to have a more deterministic approach of craft. And I agree with that. For me it was pleasant to craft with such system for 200-300h but I will probably get bored of it if we dont have anything else to have some tools to choice some affix. But again, its a EA and I feel this base of crafting pretty good, more simple than PoE1 and so, accessible for newcomers but as you and others, I hope we would have new tools in next extension of PoE2 and for release

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

You are right, your opinion is unpopular. Why do you think that is? There are MANY other SSF players (some of the best and most experienced PoE players) that feel precisely the opposite of your post.
Why?
Because they are experienced enough to recognize that we don't actually have any crafting system. We have a handful of orbs and other paraphernalia that make you think you are crafting but......all you are really doing is a step-by-step complete gamble.

Its true for most of it but not all (I just watch Zizaran and ZiggyD and they dont think exactly like this).
But we would have a discussion about : whats exactly to craft in an ARPG ? And we would have a lot of different definition. For me, if you avoid the random part, its not crafting anymore, its creating stuff.

But the main question is : is the crafting system fun ? Right now, some loud PoE1 voices want people to think its not. But what about me, dozens of other players who said the same on this thread and why hundreds of thousand of players are still playing PoE2 if the crafting and so, the looting part is awful ???

PoE1 old players used to craft in PoE1. They recognize for a newbie, its a total mess and unbearable, and PoE2 is making a great job to simplify it for them. And why cant we have 2 different games, with differents crafting system for different (or same) players ?

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Legoury#0138 wrote:

But the main question is : is the crafting system fun ? Right now, some loud PoE1 voices want people to think its not. But what about me, dozens of other players who said the same on this thread and why hundreds of thousand of players are still playing PoE2 if the crafting and so, the looting part is awful ???

Sorry but....no. I disagree that this is the main question. This is where so many on these forums lose their arguments. The "fun" trap.

Everything is far more fun now than it will ever be in the future....because its new. Similarly, everything that people find bad are the WORST they will likely ever be right now because they are inexperienced and/or the things will be changed.

However, what is important to the discussion on crafting is NOT the fun aspect: its the functionality. Things can be plenty fun, but dysfunctional game breaking terrible design. This has happened over and over and over again in PoE 1. And each and every time, the "fun" thing had to be patched away because it wasn't functional. Vacuuming spirits to create a game-crashing loot explosion WAS fun. Endless loot and abyss spires in 3.23 WERE fun. Old school HH and un-capped 5way drops WERE fun.....until they weren't. That is precisely the point.

Arguing or debating "fun" is an impossible task. An argument with absolutely no possible way of affecting meaningful change. What will ALWAYS be the most important question is: does it function, and does it function well?

Crafting in PoE 2.....doesn't function well. It's pure gambling. Many might find that "fun" but cannot and will not stand up to future development and game longevity.

Fun is important to consider, but it is NEVER the main question. It can't be.

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cowmoo275#3095 wrote:

Everything is far more fun now than it will ever be in the future....because its new. Similarly, everything that people find bad are the WORST they will likely ever be right now because they are inexperienced and/or the things will be changed.

However, what is important to the discussion on crafting is NOT the fun aspect: its the functionality.

You are absolutely right. The main part is the functionnality, I agree.

But I really want to know why, for you and for a lot of old poE1 players, you think its bad. I mean, its really close from what PoE2 was few years ago, before crafting bench.
I mean, if essence and omens were not in PoE2 I could totally understand the fear of players to see the worst part of PoE1 as a crafting system for PoE2. But we have some signs, GGG would probably use more mechanisms in the future, to make PoE2 crafting system more deterministic no ?

IMHO as an SFF player in PoE1 & 2, PoE2 crap-thing is just an ILLUSION, it does not exist.

Slamming transmute, alteration, regal & exalt to get random outcome is no different from picking up rares & slamming scroll of wisdom, or going to Alva & spamming gamble.

As I mentioned in my other post, the PoE2 crap-thing currently leans heavily toward luck/gambling. It needs a more deterministic factor to be more reliable and differentiate itself from the other method of acquiring gears I mentioned above.

It's only good in early-game like leveling, but becomes nuisance & mostly useless at late endgame.

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Legoury#0138 wrote:

But the main question is : is the crafting system fun ? Right now, some loud PoE1 voices want people to think its not. But what about me, dozens of other players who said the same on this thread and why hundreds of thousand of players are still playing PoE2 if the crafting and so, the looting part is awful ???

PoE1 old players used to craft in PoE1. They recognize for a newbie, its a total mess and unbearable, and PoE2 is making a great job to simplify it for them. And why cant we have 2 different games, with differents crafting system for different (or same) players ?

If you don't mind me joining the conversation I'd like to address some of your points:

-- Is the crafting system fun?

I would say that at league start I enjoyed IDing new loot and trying to improve the quality of "interesting" loot that I did find with Augs, Regals, EX, and Chaos if I wanted to get spicy.

For me that stopped being fun when I realized that I'd gotten to the point when it became obvious that the time to find a dropped upgrade OR the cost of crafting an upgrade is absolutely prohibitive.

Unlike PoE1 I don't see as many different vectors that I could engage with profit crafting or similar activities that I could use to gain enough wealth to "keep up".


-- Why are many people still playing??

I'd say it's a combination of people enjoying the gameplay loop, people haven't finished trying different builds, and people are playing to get a sense of the game & give feedback.

I suspect, but can't prove, that there are NOT a high percentage of people that are playing because they enjoy the crafting system as-is.


-- Why can't we have too different games??

I wasn't convinced earlier that GGG could manage two games and the news over the last week or two has raised that "risk" level significantly for me. In the end there is a REAL risk that only one game will go on to be all that it can be --- and the way corporations work it has to be PoE2 otherwise too many heads would roll.



One thing I'm not dead-set against would be for PoE2 to TRY to please everyone. I wouldn't mind a player base division -- maybe a "trade league" with poor drops but a robust crafting system ... in addition maybe a "trade-free league" that is balanced around really good drops with a comparatively weak crafting system to help "smooth over the rough RNG parts".

I'm also open to discussing other ideas.


What I'm not open to is making a game that absolutely cuts out the hardcore PoE2 fans OR a significant chunk of the PoE1 fans --- as I'm concerned that PoE2 may be the only viable game in a few years ...

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whats the most punishing for you : using thousands of alt + exalted to have an pretty good gear, or using dozens of transmut + regal + exalted ?

Having to get dozens of normal bases and then having to reforge them when the transmute+aug+regal gamble fails. You talk about how long it takes to get the alts but continue to just side step the issue of how long it takes to get bases. You might find it fun to pick up a bunch of white items to transmute, but it doesn't make a good crafting system. Also it's pretty disingenuous to use my example of crafting an endgame amulet as an example of normal crafting.

I'll use an early to mid range crafting example this time. Let's say I want chaos resistance and a decent life roll on my gloves, in PoE 1 that's about 8 essences. Pretty easy to get ssf with essence specced on the atlas tree (I've done it for multiple items in multiple leagues). In poe2 that's transmute+aug for probably 50 different bases if not more. Essences can lower the base requirement, but then you have the problem on not being able to get enough essences. The farming time to build up the base for even a simple craft is unacceptable. In PoE 1 you get the base and you're done.

As far as the crafting bench is concerned, they might add it back but the fact remains they chose to remove it. They have 10 years of experience with designing a crafting system, at this point any friction introduced is intentional. They're not a new studio figuring stuff out on their first game. Every aspect of "crafting" in poe 2 tells me they don't want people to slowly and meaningfully upgrade their gear with increasingly complex methods. They want making gear to resemble playing a slot machine.

By definition crafting requires skill, care, and/or ingenuity to create something. In poe 2 you just smash orbs against an item and hope you get lucky. Omens and essences can help, but it still feels like pure luck most of the time

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Legoury#0138 wrote:

But I really want to know why, for you and for a lot of old poE1 players, you think its bad. I mean, its really close from what PoE2 was few years ago, before crafting bench.
I mean, if essence and omens were not in PoE2 I could totally understand the fear of players to see the worst part of PoE1 as a crafting system for PoE2. But we have some signs, GGG would probably use more mechanisms in the future, to make PoE2 crafting system more deterministic no ?

I tried to explain why. But perhaps I can clarify:
1) Full, 100% gambling simply isn't crafting.
2) We can only assess the current system and its reaches into the future. We cannot "assume" GGG will do xyz or introduce xyz later. RIGHT NOW this is what we can assess. Suggesting that they will add a crafting bench soon is a clear admission that "something is wrong" with crafting right now that warrants a bench. That's pretty much the point.
3) Essences: they took the "right" niche for essences (guaranteed, level-based mods) and turned them into an alchemy orb with the absolute minimum amount of determinism. And at the same time, made them nearly useless for progression-based crafting. What role are they supposed to play in PoE 2, and WHY do they need to play that role? Ask yourself that question.
4) Omens: similar to essences. Why do they exist? What is their purpose? What "difference" do they make in crafting that any other system in PoE 1 didn't already do, better?

Why do I think its bad? Put most simply: we have no control and its a lesser system than even the most BASIC system created during the beta of PoE 1 over 13 years ago.

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whats the most punishing for you : using thousands of alt + exalted to have an pretty good gear, or using dozens of transmut + regal + exalted ?

If the alternative to using "thousands of alts" is to gather "thousands of bases" then I'd choose the thousands of alts every single time without fail.

As for using "thousands of alts" or dozens of Trans + Aug + Regal + EX I suspect that this is a false equivalency. Based on information from Craft of Exile 2 it would take MILLIONS of bases along with millions of Trans + Aug + Regal + EX to just duplicate the [comparatively] bad armour I'm already wearing -- forget about using those methods for end-game armour.

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Legoury#0138 wrote:

I mean, if essence and omens were not in PoE2 I could totally understand the fear of players to see the worst part of PoE1 as a crafting system for PoE2. But we have some signs, GGG would probably use more mechanisms in the future, to make PoE2 crafting system more deterministic no ?

Omens and Essences drops from normal gameplay as any other currency? No.
Is easy to set up and sustain Ritual and Essence encounters? No.
The use of Omens and Essences is building enabling from Act 1 to Endgame on fresh new characters and alts alike? No.


Most of the complainers are not looking for pure "deterministc" crafting, people are looking for agency in using crafting to enable build diversity. The crafting bench does that from Act 1 to Endgame Uber in PoE 1. Is not about have the same thing, is about (as cowmoon said) functionality from the get go. PoE 2 doesn't offer any building enabling functionality in any level besides Mirror crafting tier... it is completly unreliable, time sinking, resource wasting and no functional.

When Trade >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> crafting is the ratio, something is pretty wrong.

At least when Trade >>> crafting is the ratio, there is a tenuos balance between the two source of progression.

I'd also add, just to tie into the "fun" idea:

Wouldn't it be more fun to have more control over your character progression at EVERY stage of development? Rather than pump and pray? WHY was PoE 1 developed the way it was? WHY did the crafting bench come into existence? OG essences? Fossils? Etc. There already WERE reasons for them, and even more reasons why they were allowed to remain beyond the league, and even adjusted to be available earlier in the game.

Is there something inherently MORE fun having to risk it all on every single piece of gear and orb you spend? Will that remain fun 10 years from now?

Don't get me wrong, there CERTAINLY IS fun in high risk, high reward. Vaal orbs are a great example. But all the time, with literally everything? No low/no risk, almost guaranteed reward at all?

GGG wanted a system that was more approachable for new players. But they went to the absolute lowest common denominator: appeal through lack of thought and control. Sure....the current crafting is more approachable, but that's only because it doesn't matter what you do or what you understand: its all gambling. That is the coward's or laziest way to design "approachable".