Trading sucks because Divs aren't valuable

Reading someone say that every economy on the planet is backed by gold was not on my PoE Forums bingo card. But it should have been.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

you said nobody wants divines, but the opposite is true. ggg didnt tell the community to use divines as the default trading currency, they made a game that has a ton of orbs in it and the players chose divines as the default trading currency. we decided we wanted divines.

That's false. Back in 3.19, GGG changed the old exalted recipes to require divines instead, which means they wanted Divines to become the new 'gold standard' instead of exalts. Players didn't decide this. GGG did.

You've been playing since 2013. You should know this.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

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AtmaMonkey#9518 wrote:

- All currencies in the world are backed by gold. Again you are very misinformed.

- Correct, money in today's standard is a way of storing account. That money is backed up by actual material gold. You can use money to buy gold. Gold stores over time.

no its not m8, the $ the £ etc are all fiat currency they are not backed by gold.

not that it matters because gold has no inherent value either. i can make things from gold... ok, i can make things from dirt too, i can make things from rocks that i can just pick up from the floor for free.

we have decided gold is more valuable than those rocks because we decided it.




you said nobody wants divines, but the opposite is true. ggg didnt tell the community to use divines as the default trading currency, they made a game that has a ton of orbs in it and the players chose divines as the default trading currency. we decided we wanted divines.

poe trading doesnt tank every league.

What?
GGG changed poe1 and divines became the top currency.
Exalts were the top dog.

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we decided we wanted divines

So you decided you want a currency with no value? You never answered the question at all. What good is a divine orb sitting in your inventory at level 13? 30? 50? 70? nothing. Divine orb has no value as it sits. The only value is that it's labeled a currency. That's it. Tell me what value divine orb has? Why would you want one in your inventory? Can you use it? NO.

Exalts are far more valuable. they add a new stat to your gear. It cannot be bad adding a new stat. Divs on gear are completely random and most of the time it worsens the item....

Well, you can use a Divine orb to fine-tune your rolls. The problem is that this really only matters to the highest-end crafting, which most players don't engage in. Because most players don't engage in using Divines, they are no better than a valuable lump sitting in their stash. It's yet another symptom of PoE2 having huge gulfs between low-mid level players and the highest of the high end - which most people defending the system are not.

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Gwonam#5505 wrote:

Reading someone say that every economy is backed by gold was not on my PoE Forums bingo card. But it should have been.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

you said nobody wants divines, but the opposite is true. ggg didnt tell the community to use divines as the default trading currency, they made a game that has a ton of orbs in it and the players chose divines as the default trading currency. we decided we wanted divines.

That's not quite true. Back in 3.19, GGG changed the old exalted recipes to require divines instead, which means they wanted Divines to become the new 'gold standard' instead of exalts. Players didn't decide this. GGG did.

You've been playing since 2013. You should know this.

yeah for sure, youre right they swapped divines and exalts around in poe1 because they wanted the effect of a divine to be more rare and the effect of an exalt to be more usable. but the players chose exalts in the first place and the players didnt need to swap to divines, they chose to follow ggg on this. sure ggg did know exalts had been chosen by the players as the gold standard and their messaging was suggestive of a switch. but that was also poe1 not poe2. divines also had a lot more of a use case in poe1 so the criticism of them having no use doesnt quite transfer back.

they added eternal orbs back in the day and said these are more rare than exalts, but the community didnt switch to pricing in eternals the way they did when they said divines should be more rare via bench mod sink.

we could have chosen gcp to be the gold standard instead of exalts in 2013 and then a divine/exalt switch wouldnt have effected the gold standard. we could have chosen divines in the first place, they had the same drop rate.



when it switched to poe2 we didnt have to stick with anything. weve basically swapped exalts and chaos, ex are the new chaos orb, we didnt have to stick with divines being divines. they just released poe2 with the orbs it has and the players decided ok we keep with divines but we switch chaos and exalts. its emergent behaviour right? no one actually made these calls it just happens, we collectively decided like flocking birds.




thats why ggg dont make their own loot filters, they dont want to tell us what to think when it comes to what is valuable. if we decide a divine is worth less than a regal then thats what we decide. its all on us theres nothing in the game that has ever said an exalt, a divine or a chaos orb should be a default gold standard trading currency.

us telling ggg a divine shouldnt be a trading currency is meaningless right? because theres nothing in the game making it so, its us the players that are 100% responsible for it.

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AtmaMonkey#9518 wrote:

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we decided we wanted divines

So you decided you want a currency with no value? You never answered the question at all. What good is a divine orb sitting in your inventory at level 13? 30? 50? 70? nothing. Divine orb has no value as it sits. The only value is that it's labeled a currency. That's it. Tell me what value divine orb has? Why would you want one in your inventory? Can you use it? NO.

Exalts are far more valuable. they add a new stat to your gear. It cannot be bad adding a new stat. Divs on gear are completely random and most of the time it worsens the item....

im playing poe2 self found, i think me and my mrs have found 6 divines so far and used them all.

the community came to poe2 and decided we collectively would use exalts and divines as the default trading currencies. theres a load of orbs in the game we could have chosen any of them.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

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Gwonam#5505 wrote:

Reading someone say that every economy is backed by gold was not on my PoE Forums bingo card. But it should have been.

"

Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

you said nobody wants divines, but the opposite is true. ggg didnt tell the community to use divines as the default trading currency, they made a game that has a ton of orbs in it and the players chose divines as the default trading currency. we decided we wanted divines.

That's not quite true. Back in 3.19, GGG changed the old exalted recipes to require divines instead, which means they wanted Divines to become the new 'gold standard' instead of exalts. Players didn't decide this. GGG did.

You've been playing since 2013. You should know this.

yeah for sure, youre right they swapped divines and exalts around in poe1 because they wanted the effect of a divine to be more rare and the effect of an exalt to be more usable. but the players chose exalts in the first place and the players didnt need to swap to divines, they chose to follow ggg on this. sure ggg did know exalts had been chosen by the players as the gold standard and their messaging was suggestive of a switch. but that was also poe1 not poe2. divines also had a lot more of a use case in poe1 so the criticism of them having no use doesnt quite transfer back.

they added eternal orbs back in the day and said these are more rare than exalts, but the community didnt switch to pricing in eternals the way they did when they said divines should be more rare via bench mod sink.

we could have chosen gcp to be the gold standard instead of exalts in 2013 and then a divine/exalt switch wouldnt have effected the gold standard. we could have chosen divines in the first place, they had the same drop rate.



when it switched to poe2 we didnt have to stick with anything. weve basically swapped exalts and chaos, ex are the new chaos orb, we didnt have to stick with divines being divines. they just released poe2 with the orbs it has and the players decided ok we keep with divines but we switch chaos and exalts. its emergent behaviour right? no one actually made these calls it just happens, we collectively decided like flocking birds.




thats why ggg dont make their own loot filters, they dont want to tell us what to think when it comes to what is valuable. if we decide a divine is worth less than a regal then thats what we decide. its all on us theres nothing in the game that has ever said an exalt, a divine or a chaos orb should be a default gold standard trading currency.

us telling ggg a divine shouldnt be a trading currency is meaningless right? because theres nothing in the game making it so, its us the players that are 100% responsible for it.

Players carried that behavior over because there was a precedent from PoE1. It's arbitrary, yes, but divines drop less often anyway and that just reinforced the notion that divines should be worth more than exalts. It's also competing with far fewer currencies in general.

I think you are far too charitable with how GGG views their currencies. They leave much of the market up to players, yes, but they do take a hand in directing players toward those conclusions.

Eternal orbs probably didn't become any kind of standard because their use was far more niche than your average exalt, which has plenty of uses. Eternals were mostly used to fish for good exalt rolls since we didn't have Annuls back then. There was also that one time eternals went up in price and then tanked after a certain player started duping perfectly rolled daggers using a hideout exploit:

https://old.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/2t031w/hookeysconfession_the_guy_who_had_the_perfect/

i dunno, there was no bench mods when eternals were added. so the only use for an exalt was slamming for an affix on gear. id argue an eternal had a use for every use of an exalt, because it means u can undo the exalt and go again. but it also had a use if you had a good roll on an item but wanted to risk diving for a better one. you could in theory eternal a 5 link to save it when rolling for a 6 link, or you could use them to save the chrom colour on your sockets.


theres an awful lot you could have done with an eternal on top of creating a roll back for every use case of an exalt. obviously people did almost none of those things cause they were prohibitively rare.


did they ever really direct us to exalts and chaos orbs back in 2013? i think we chose to use them. but i know what ur saying and yeah they know we use them and then that becomes part of the design because then theyre pricing stuff like bench mods in currencies knowing their trade usage which reinforces the status.

you have things like gcps where a gcp was 5:1 exalt back in 2013 but fell off hard as time went on. then ggg didnt like that we didnt value gcps eventually and made gem quality matter more, took out the 20% skill gem recipe i think?




but i think in poe2 weve decided to carry over the divine and not the chaos, that was really our choice just like 2013 when we chose exalts and chaos. id argue that ggg agree a divine has much less of a use case than an exalt to a self found player and thats why divines have so much lower drop rate. you just need way less of them.



theres factors here too like we dont have 95% of the endgame unique items in the game yet.




i remember the dagger guy. i emailed ggg when he listed the spell damage dagger and pointed out there was no way that dagger he made was legit that early in a league.

I think you’re confusing value with utility. Divines lack utility, not value.

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AtmaMonkey#9518 wrote:

- All currencies in the world are backed by gold. Again you are very misinformed.

- Correct, money in today's standard is a way of storing account. That money is backed up by actual material gold. You can use money to buy gold. Gold stores over time.

This is just, really, really wrong. Unfortunately it's you who is misinformed. FIAT money that we use today is no longer backed up by gold, since like 1970-s.

Just because you can buy gold for money does not mean it's backed up by it. Today you buy gold just like you buy any other "product". The amount of gold you can buy for your money will change according to the market, inflation etc.

Please double-check your "facts" before accusing someone else of being misinformed.

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AtmaMonkey#9518 wrote:

So you decided you want a currency with no value? [...] The only value is that it's labeled a currency. That's it. Tell me what value divine orb has? Why would you want one in your inventory?

It's no different than what we have with FIAT money. It's a used up piece of paper, with "no value", yet we have decided to use it as a currency.

You are correct that untill you get the gear worthy of "divining", one can consider divine orbs as also being "just a currency". And like with FIAT money or with crypto, the community decided that it will be using divine orbs in high-end trading. You can hate it all you want however it will probably not change, unless the devs do something about it.

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AtmaMonkey#9518 wrote:

Can you use it? NO.

Now this is just a lie. You can use it. Just right click it and then click on an item. It has its function. You just choose not to use it because you think its market value is way grater than the effect it has on non-endgame gear.

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Snorkle_uk#0761 wrote:

not that it matters because gold has no inherent value either. i can make things from gold... ok, i can make things from dirt too, i can make things from rocks that i can just pick up from the floor for free.

we have decided gold is more valuable than those rocks because we decided it.

This is not really true, gold has certain physical and chemical properties that you won't find in dirt nor rocks on the floor. Those properties give gold an intrinsic value beyond just "social agreement".


Personally I think the biggest problem with divines is their huge inflation (finding divines is like printing money). Because it's a valuable currency people don't want to use them. Maybe having more high-end uniques that everyone can obtain and that are worthy of divining would solve this inflation. Personally I'd like it if divines could change not only values but also the tier of affixes. It would give more incentive to use them on rare items helping in "crafting" a good rare (which are mainly just trash - even if you get the affixes you like they're most often then not low tier ones). It would also improve the SSF experience.