Death Penalty System - EXP Loss in particular
" Please... for the sake of god. Stop repeating this sh*t over and over. It makes no sense no matter how often you repeat it. First of all: these bugs exist on PoE 1 - they still do. Go check some more recent videos. Why do they exist on PoE 2? Because they copied large chunks of the code and therefore also these bugs. They haven't fully fixed them in PoE 1 and I doubt they will in PoE 2 as these are usually no real bugs. I bet those are side effects of any algorithm in the background that can't be fixed without a larger rework of some of the calculations. I am a Software Engineer myself. So have quite some experience in Software Quality Tests, bug reports and bug testing. So stop trying to argue with a point that wasn't a point from the very start. These bugs are not going to be fixed anytime soon. Hence: remove the EXP penalty to prevent loss of progress without the players fault. Next thing: Why are you not wanting to remove the Map, Atlas, single Portal punishment? You are all about the EXP Penalty as MESSAGE - I literally can't read this anymore. The game is not giving you any message at all. The game is not trying to tell you something. The game has no self awareness. It's the developer who add stuff to make it harder and harder and harder for no real reason. There is no REAL point behind it other than causing more and more frustration around the player base. And I couldn't care less where people coming from and what games they might have played. If GGG doesn't want me to attempt some difficulty level that can be called a challenge, why bother to sell the game with this kind of freedom of choice in the first place? Yeah, EXP loss can be seen as a kind of risk. But yet again: How much risk does it need to be? Why in hell is it not enough to lose the Map, atlas and so on? Why does it have to be the EXP that's sending your so beloved message? It makes literally no sense to argue this way without a valid point. People here still can't give a single reason for the EXP penalty to stay other than their personal enjoyment to be better than others because they don't die because they are fine with pussy level difficulties. But guess what: There are player out there that doesn't want to run Tier 3 maps until they have items fit to run Tier 10 maps just because Tier 8 or 9 can't be played due to bugs or because people like a more challenging experience. Like I said: I basically 1 hit an entire screen with my melee build. This mostly includes rare enemies unless there is a high defence mod on the map. Being able to 1 hit everything in Tier 5 as well as in tier 7 makes me want to try tier 8 or 9 but I simply can't because trying to find a mix of difficulty and reward will always end in dying at some point. While it's not that bad on lv 80, it will be on 90 or 95. And the problem I see is that I'm basically excluded from some of the challenging gameplay because dying on lv 95 wastes 1-2 weeks of time invested. Sure, I can continue... No pressure in terms of time as this is not a league limited to 3 month. But it's so freaking annoying to die for what ever reason and lose something that's complete out of comparison to anything else. Losing maps or orbs or what ever else can be farmed quite fast. But EXP takes weeks to months at one point. And while I have my christmas vacation now where I can play 12 hours a day, I can only afford about 2 during work days. And some people can't even doing that. The message as you call it is utter bullshit because wasting several days and weeks of progress for trying out skills, build and items on a difficulty level that's meant to test it, makes no sense. I don't need to test my new weapon in a map tier 5 because it's save. I have to test my gear in a map where I used to die... just to find out... damn... died again. Another month of EXP farming gone. There is simply not a single logical point in that... not one. Coming to the 2nd part. I wouldn't say I am an well experienced PoE player but certainly a very experienced player in general. I never really played Diablo but tried the 3rd one... wasn't interesting. Grim Dawn 2.000 hours and 5 characters lv 100. Grim Dawn has EXP loss as well by the way. I still managed to get to level them all up without much of an issue because of the way it's played. It's way more forgiving than PoE. And the amount of EXP is like 100 times higher. On lv 99 you can run lv 98 content in terms of difficulty and challenge. In PoE with lv 95 you can't run lv 93 content with the same level of difficulty. So basically to totally different things. Last Epoch 800 hours with 3 characters but not one is max level as I have to dig deeper into those mechanics but PoE 2 came across. I play a melee Boneshatter build with 2200 HP, 59% armor 64% block F: 90% Co: 92% L: 101% Ch: 74% resi. You are right, the snake head monsters deal Chaos damage but the shield explicit states "Block all blockable damage" And any kind of projectile can be blocked by the shield. Tried it like 1000 times in the story. Only ground effects, area effects and heavy boss attacks can't be blocked. While boss attacks that have a physical component can be blocked. And we are not talking about the BLOCK value on the shield. I talk about the "raise shield" skill you have an every shield that can be used with every class. Even a mage can use this mechanic. " It doesn't solve the bug but it would clearly making this bug way way less annoying. If you don't believe it read throu all the comments here. It's not a small loss as I stated further up... I wouldn't give a shit if it wouldn't take days or weeks to grind this back. But while I grind the EXP back I get more of the same of what I already have. I am lv 80, have 6 divine and 120 Exalted.... sure I can buy porno endgame gear but that would be soooo lame. I want to attempt to craft most of it myself. So it's fine for me to grind it. But while doing so I want "more" than just 1 hit kill the entire map. I don't see how someone can't understand this at all. Like I said a few times. I do not thing I am entailed to reach lv 100 with every build but I want to try and create builds (without checking guides) and try to get as high as possible without losing EXP. And if - at some point - i hit a wall and die 100 times WHILE improving my items than I have to accept that this is the limit for my build. But getting kicked back to 0% EXP on every attempt just doesn't feel right. While it is true that 10 more skillpoints won't rescue a trash build, I would still like to get the chance to get "just one point more" to play around with my passives and maybe find a combination that works better than the prev. But I can't test it because I can't get anywhere... At this point it's no punishment. It's frustration. |
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POE2
1 death = 1 map lost + all "league" mechanic lost + 15% XP lost + all loot in the floor lost POE1 1 death = 1 portal lost + 10% exp lost Yes, it's self-explanatory. Everyone knows that the game won’t launch in its current state. Do you remember when, in early access, we had to farm the first act until we found two cold resistance rings to beat Merveil with several classes? In that same time, today a player can complete the entire campaign. Believing that this poor design would remain shows a lot of naivety. 2024 Activo. Last edited by Samain#6430 on Dec 26, 2024, 5:38:01 AM
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" thanks for this point. Good wording, love it. If the game has a EXP Loss penalty that can only be circumvented by running lower content where the character is outgeared to a point where I find items that allow to run less lower - but still lower content - than the challenge is 0. Putting just enough time in and you get lv 100 while playing several 1000 of maps on a difficulty where it's usually impossible to die if you hit the potion button just in the right second. I on the other hand would like to have some challenge that requires to combine skills and make use of abilities that are provided. Like I said: Raise Shield in just the right second to block a strong attack followed by dodge roll behind the boss to burst damage on him until I see the next blockable attack coming in... it's such a nice fluent gameplay and once I learned the boss mechanics in the story I could beat them at ease. with the downside that I don't deal a lot of damage against bosses. I need a while to hit them down but that's fine for me. Difference in maps are the modifier that make bosses stronger & faster. So I need to either adept my movement or improve things so I can stand a hit more. But how can I even bother trying it if I am faced with the loss of several days or weeks worth of EXP grind? Last edited by B1tchFight#1281 on Dec 26, 2024, 5:48:33 AM
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" You can really look in the mirror for this one, you know. " You keep bringing up this situation of players attempting content they are "not ready for" - Who Cares??? How is that a bad thing for the game? Players having fun trying to beat the hardest content they can. But that's not the way I want to play, so they must be punished. " It wouldn't, and that's the point. You'll still die, and that's fine. Without the XP penalty, it's your player vs the mobs/bosses. Now, it's your player vs. the dev team. It isn't the boss holding me back, it's the dev team punishing me for daring to push my character to the limits. |
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" This thread is about the XP penalty. That's why I am writing about the XP penalty. Yes, the game itself is not self aware. The developer implements these mechanics to send the message they want you to get. It is not about making the game harder. An XP penalty does not increase the difficulty. " Pinnacle bosses are the challenge. You can very well try maps as a challenge but you have to accept if you fail the challenge. " I did multiple times. You simply choose not wanting to understand. " Then this is the players decision and the player needs to accept the result of their decision. " Are we still talking about the XP penalty? How does the XP penalty waste 1-2 weeks of time invested? If this is still about XP loss, even if you would get 5 levels, this would only be a bit more damage. But you already are one shotting the entire screen. So what would change? On the other hand, if you have such a surplus of damage, have you tried to change some of the damage passive points to defense? " I think you are over exaggerating. I am currently level 87. When I die it takes me maybe 2 maps to get the lost XP back. " That's what I mean. I think, think is the imperative word here, that the snake projectile only creates a ground effect that deals the damage. Not the projectile itself. If my assumption is correct, that would mean it is not blockable. " I am a firm believer that one should always fix the issue instead of covering it with something. If I have a toothache I don't want to take painkillers for the rest of my life. I go to the dentist to fix my tooth. Also, from your description I am not sure that it was really a bug that killed you. Like with the snakes, the projectiles creating a ground effect would be a plausible explanation for me. I also can't see how removing the XP penalty would help you in any way. It seems to me like you situation would just stay exactly the same. Like I said, since you already explode the entire screen with one attack, as you said, a bit more damage from maybe 5 or 10 levels more would not do anything. And if you want defensive points, you would be free to respec some damage nodes to defense nodes, since you clearly have enough damage. To me it sounds like you are annoyed by dying and want to vent. |
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" As mentioned in my original post - gear progression at a certain point is outside of the players control if you can´t do high enough content. It´s entirely rgn. This renders the point of difficulty being controllable somewhat moot. The natural progression you mentioned in your post does hit a wall with the current two prompt death penalties in place - beacuse both access to gear and build/levels are penalized. |
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" No. Having an XP penalty affects everyone. It sends the "message" that the devs DO NOT WANT you to try challenging content. If there is a reasonable chance you might die, then that content is not for you. And you, personally, are fine with having no challenge in the game. You look at going 99/100 maps with no deaths as perfectly fine. To me that sounds absolutely brain dead boring. If maps are that easy, they shouldn't exist. Let me "farm" gear by opening loot boxes out of a pachinko machine (not for real money, of course). That would be more engaging, save time, and get me back to the part of the game I want to play - ie: the challenging part. The devs clearly do not want you to have the joy of facing a challenge multiple times, finally having everything "click", and winning the battle. They would rather you lose, go down and grind up until you have over leveled and over geared the encounter, and then come back and crush it. That may sound like fun to you. In fact, you seem to think it necessary. Players sticking with trying to overcome the challenge must be TAUGHT A LESSON so that they change that mindset. This also runs completely counter to what the game taught them throughout the campaign. Bosses are tough, so die, die again. Learn their mechanics, improve your timing, and you will succeed. Over leveling was not needed (well, depending on your class, at least). I'll end this with one other observation: If you really mean for players to progress through grinding out hundreds (thousands?) of maps where they have little to no chance of death - well, that's exactly the sort of thing people are willing to pay real money to avoid. And they will, if the endgame is exciting and engaging enough for them to want to get there. Edit: Maybe that's GGG's endgame. Selling a level 100 boost. If the game stays the way it is, a lot of people will buy it. Last edited by Mouser#2899 on Dec 26, 2024, 6:29:48 AM
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" With the difference that I am giving you an explanation why the mechanic is useful. And you just want to remove it because you keep failing at maps. " But apparently they can't. If they could the penalty would not effect them. Everyone is free to do whatever they want. They just have to accept the outcome of their decisions. I would not care, if players would not come crying to the forum and complain about their own decisions. " No, you are punishing yourself. You have all needed parameters for your decision. You make your decision. And then you are mad at one of the known parameters. It is still your character vs the mobs/bosses. Like you said, removing the XP penalty would not change you dying. What else would you gain from removing the XP penalty? Maybe 5-10 more levels over some time? So a little bit more damage? Is that what we are arguing about? Would these levels be earned? Failing upwards? Or is it not about the levels? So do you not care about getting the XP? If so, then why remove it? " How does this effect someone who maybe dies 1 in a 100 maps? In this situation a little bit of XP is lost, 2 maps later that loss is made up for, leaves 98 maps of XP gain. This simply makes no sense. And you still keep misusing the word challenge to describe your desire to run content meant for farming above your characters capabilities. Maps are not a challenge. If you do not want to understand this, there is no point in continue arguing. But you it is still your decision and you will have to accept the outcome of your decision. It also does not remove the option to attempt the content. I just raises the stakes. " This could only be true for SSF, Solo Self Found. In trade league you can always farm Exalted Orbs somewhere to buy items. Even in Act 1 normal. But i would argue that it is entirely false, since most affix tiers can already appear on items dropped in tier 1 maps. There are maybe 1-3 tiers of certain affixes that are limited to higher item level. Like +# Level of Minion Skills on Sceptres. +4 can roll on item level 55 (dropped even before maps), while +5 needs item level 81 (tier 16 map). So in maps there is not that much difference in the possible power of items. At least not enough to really let you hit a wall. Or depending on how you meant it. Gear progression in the sense that there is the possibility/chance of an upgrade is always given. Gear progression in the sense that an update in plausible to be gotten in a relatively short time ... here I think the time is always an exponential curve. The better items you have the more time/currency you need to invest to get an upgrade. Last edited by Avaricta#4758 on Dec 26, 2024, 6:56:28 AM
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" If maps are not a challenge they should be removed from the game. Just leave in the bosses. If you are happy grinding through content semi-AFK for hundreds of maps at a time, great. Most players aren't. They will find another game, or find ways to bypass it. Maybe the devs will bypass it for them. I'm starting to think a Level 100 Boost coming to the cash shop may not be unlikely. To address your point directly: Yes, XP loss is a known parameter. The parameter sucks: it shouldn't be in the game, it doesn't add anything positive to the game, and it negatively affects the game. You believe a "message needs to be sent" to players that they should stop challenging themselves. Dying over and over again isn't enough - they must be prevented from enjoying that playstyle. I disagree. The whole gimmick of "souls-likes" is "If at first you don't succeed, die, die, again". Not "gear up and grind out out levels until you remove the challenge." |
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" Sorry, but then you simply have the wrong game. Grinding maps for days/weeks is literally the core endgame loop of PoE 1 and PoE 2. Some people farm bosses in PoE 1, but that is basically the same, since they are doing it with special boss builds that kill uber pinnacle bosses in seconds. Sure you can do pinnacle bosses for a challenge. I did too. But you need to get the needed gear somehow. Or in PoE 2 you need the items to access the bosses. So you either need to farm the core endgame loop for these items, or for enough currency to buy them. |
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