"Doubling melee attack costs for slams" is the most unnecessary balance change ever.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Like how is this not true for every build that reserves 85% of their mana, and has several skills going off at the same time?

Just goes to show your complete lack of knowledge on the matter. If you had any actual experience with melee you'd know that melee builds used to reserve most of their mana in 3.24 and before as well WITHOUT having to expend so much effort on fixing mana issues. You didn't even need - mana cost rings before. 50-60 open mana and a mana leech node used to be enough.

Theres no lack of knowledge it was a rhetorical question. Anyone reserving that much mana and has that many skills going off will 100% run into mana issues if they dont have cost rings and or regen to make up for it.

There was no "before" in this case what are you even on about?

There was no slam build running 4 cries on auto cast before while you spam your main skill. Stop making things up. You couldnt even do that before, call to arms put ALL your cries on cooldown when it autoed just ONE of them.

Old Slam was, you put up a totem down and then used your main skill. Thats all your mana cost was before.


Funny enough the fringe 4 manual cry echoes of creation builds, guess what ring crafts they were running??


It has nothing to do with slams, warcries, melee...

It has everything to do with every build in the game.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Like how is this not true for every build that reserves 85% of their mana, and has several skills going off at the same time?

Just goes to show your complete lack of knowledge on the matter. If you had any actual experience with melee you'd know that melee builds used to reserve most of their mana in 3.24 and before as well WITHOUT having to expend so much effort on fixing mana issues. You didn't even need - mana cost rings before. 50-60 open mana and a mana leech node used to be enough.

Yes, in 3.24 you were able to fix mana with just Elreon rings + helmet implicits. Before that we had Catharina flask craft (which was even more beneficial to casters, mind you, and rightfully got culled).

Now you either go Blood Magic and go with Eternal Blessing or you have to invest in your character. Imo Overexertion support is what slams needed to make a comeback since it effectively beats Brutality in terms of damage multiplier, and by a landslide. Well worth that investment, and lets not pretend like Tiresome doesn't also provide a good chunk of life..

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Like how is this not true for every build that reserves 85% of their mana, and has several skills going off at the same time?

Just goes to show your complete lack of knowledge on the matter. If you had any actual experience with melee you'd know that melee builds used to reserve most of their mana in 3.24 and before as well WITHOUT having to expend so much effort on fixing mana issues. You didn't even need - mana cost rings before. 50-60 open mana and a mana leech node used to be enough.

Yes, in 3.24 you were able to fix mana with just Elreon rings + helmet implicits. Before that we had Catharina flask craft (which was even more beneficial to casters, mind you, and rightfully got culled).

Now you either go Blood Magic and go with Eternal Blessing or you have to invest in your character. Imo Overexertion support is what slams needed to make a comeback since it effectively beats Brutality in terms of damage multiplier, and by a landslide. Well worth that investment, and lets not pretend like Tiresome doesn't also provide a good chunk of life..

Again, this isn't about solutions to the problem, there are plenty of them.

If you want to have an actual argument on this matter you'd first have to provide a reason why the introduction of this problem was needed in the first place? For balance? Would melee suddenly be broken because it now had damage without using totems? Because resource management is such a big matter in POEs design philosophy in general?

And even if you managed to come up with a plausible reason, there is still the impeccable irony of GGG increasing mana cost to make players care about mana management and most players responding to that by blatantly removing mana as a resource entirely. All they achieved is introducing yet another checkbox for melee to fill out. Like the archetype didn't have enough of them to deal with already compared to casters. It's not like the vast majority of melee complaints before 3.25 originated from most players inability to check the existing boxes to begin with.

kinda 'told you so' moment

people that dont see this problem fit into just a few groups:

- Blood Magic users. they forego at least one aura and pretend that it is not a problem. opportunity cost of going Blood Magic is astronomical. it is a faux solution, easily 30-40% nerf

- claw users. they get so much mana on-hit they dont care

- elemental skill users with Inspiration. going from 55 'per click' to 35 surely makes things easier

- skills that work well with Multistrike (oh, you cannot exert multistrikes.. oops)

- builds that have cheap access to relevant mana leech. anoint is not 'cheap' - it is incredibly expensive because it replaces Whispers of Doom or any of the new prismatic anoints. opportunity cost here is very high.


so, if you happen to play elemental slam as a marauder you are screwed.
sustaining attack cost + cost of numerous extras that you need to sustain the build going - warcries, leap slam, curse, mark on hit, molten shell, retaliation warcry. all this shit costs a fortune in mana to run. properly linked retaliation warcry is like 70 mana a pop, and you need to link it, otherwise it is just a waste.


there are too few 'generic' mana leech sources, recoup is not enough, same as other 'recovery options from mana mastery.


but the most important aspect of this all - this change was not needed in the first place. if ggg wanted 'tax' our passive trees - just add yet another filler node there and there. we got shit nodes for staves this time, the retaliation wheels are pure garbage - they know how to do it.
melee needs to solve accuracy and mana. casters just need mana and it is MUCH easier to do it for them. there are just TWO +mana clusters in entire mara/duelist area..

Looking forward to the removal or nerf of blood magic next patch, as if it wasn't terrible enough already for a keystone.

The game now seems to revolve around the following dev approach: create a problem that needs fixing, fix that problem, remove the fix, leave the game alone in dumpster fire state.

Refusing to use cost rings when you reserve 85% of your mana, knowing you use multiple skills at once is not a told you so, thats just



--->someone refusing to use cost rings<---


It would happen on any build in this game.

Alk and carn both run mana builds and ... imagine this, they dont run into mana issues cause they use the crafts?

Wild isnt it?

Alk reserves 92% of his mana on his slam build and look at that no mana issues and deals more damage than anyone in this chat.

Wierd right reservation nodes and rings reducing cost of skills?

Carn reserves 75% of his.

The best melee players in the game, both of them run ring setups. And you can go ahead and look how efficient those builds are for yourself.

Suffice to say, mana isnt an issue, unless you make it yourself.


Ohh... and what is that I see on ninja? Lightning arrow users with... with the highest dps and bows using... oh god. No it cant be, mana cost rings and kalandras touch??? NO?? Ranged users dont use mana rings nuh uh no way.

Refusing to use cost rings when you know that this was not necessary at all before, knowing you use multiple skills at once is not a told you so, thats just someone refusing to dance around problems created out of nowhere.

It would happen on any build in this game if create problem find fix delete fix loop wasn't constructed.

You say that `when you reserve %85 of your mana`, what we were reserving in 3.24? %0. Nothing. %85 mana reservation nowhere is not my problem. Yes I am using ring crafts now, but this does not change the main problem here. core loop of give players a problem, let them fix it, delete the fix, continue this until poe2 philosophy needs to be gone

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canercetin wrote:

Refusing to use cost rings when you know that this was not necessary at all before, knowing you use multiple skills at once is not a told you so, thats just someone refusing to dance around problems created out of nowhere.

It would happen on any build in this game if create problem find fix delete fix loop wasn't constructed.

You say that `when you reserve %85 of your mana`, what we were reserving in 3.24? %0. Nothing. %85 mana reservation nowhere is not my problem. Yes I am using ring crafts now, but this does not change the main problem here. core loop of give players a problem, let them fix it, delete the fix, continue this until poe2 philosophy needs to be gone

I mean this is just circling back to what I originally said this has no bearing on melee, slams, or a specific skill.


Its just in general. Which is fine if you have a problem with that.

I dont wanna reserve mana but its what we are stuck with across most builds.

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Mashgesture wrote:

Refusing to use cost rings when you reserve 85% of your mana, knowing you use multiple skills at once is not a told you so, thats just



--->someone refusing to use cost rings<---


It would happen on any build in this game.

Alk and carn both run mana builds and ... imagine this, they dont run into mana issues cause they use the crafts?

Wild isnt it?

Alk reserves 92% of his mana on his slam build and look at that no mana issues and deals more damage than anyone in this chat.

Wierd right reservation nodes and rings reducing cost of skills?

Carn reserves 75% of his.

The best melee players in the game, both of them run ring setups. And you can go ahead and look how efficient those builds are for yourself.

Suffice to say, mana isnt an issue, unless you make it yourself.


Ohh... and what is that I see on ninja? Lightning strike users with... with the highest dps and bows using... oh god. No it cant be, mana cost rings and kalandras touch??? NO?? Ranged users dont use mana rings nuh uh no way.

You are still entirely missing the point. Nobody argues that there aren't any solutions to it. It doesn't take streamers to find them either, for most of us at least. Keep fighting the strawman if you like but it isn't getting you anywhere.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

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Mashgesture wrote:

Refusing to use cost rings when you reserve 85% of your mana, knowing you use multiple skills at once is not a told you so, thats just



--->someone refusing to use cost rings<---


It would happen on any build in this game.

Alk and carn both run mana builds and ... imagine this, they dont run into mana issues cause they use the crafts?

Wild isnt it?

Alk reserves 92% of his mana on his slam build and look at that no mana issues and deals more damage than anyone in this chat.

Wierd right reservation nodes and rings reducing cost of skills?

Carn reserves 75% of his.

The best melee players in the game, both of them run ring setups. And you can go ahead and look how efficient those builds are for yourself.

Suffice to say, mana isnt an issue, unless you make it yourself.


Ohh... and what is that I see on ninja? Lightning strike users with... with the highest dps and bows using... oh god. No it cant be, mana cost rings and kalandras touch??? NO?? Ranged users dont use mana rings nuh uh no way.

You are still entirely missing the point. Nobody argues that there aren't any solutions to it. It doesn't take streamers to find them either, for most of us at least, not sure about you. Keep fighting the strawman if you like but it isn't getting you anywhere.

Still waiting on how mana reservation and cost rings are a

"melee only issue"


When there are blatant and clear examples on builds that aren't melee needing them , when you can