Witchest witch defenses
" didn't crack all the numbers so it may need some fine tuning but the condition to obtain that "chaos ress into more ES" are incompatible with existing stat stacking builds so i doubt we would be getting higher ES values. CI is incompatible with ivory tower builds and witch mana stacking builds will be missing on all the mana stacking nodes templar has. self found league fan
http://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/324242/page/1 |
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"You mean for the purposes of your own thoughts. Because for the purposes of POE, ES is a defence. The game states that unequivocally. "Okay? I'm not claiming "life is the only lifepool available". And there is also no rule that calling something a "lifepool" disqualifies it from being a "defence", and yet here we are. "But your life pool has direct interaction with incoming damage. Damage comes in, the lifepool changes its value, and the damage instance ceases to exist. That's an interaction. "Energy Shield is literally a shield around the character that absorbs damage so your life doesn't have to. How is that any less "outside the character" than, say, armour? You can have whatever arbitrary definitions of words that you like of course, that's fine. I'm not demanding you agree (though I do think your definitions are pretty flimsy). Someone said they don't know why ES is classified as a defence and I offered a simple explanation, that's all. |
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" We are getting side tracked here, but for the purposes of this "side quest", but for matters of hit points, life IS exactly the same as es because of a few facts. It's a, let's loosely say "mechanic", that doesn't mitigate anything. Three characters with 1001 life, 500 life and 500 es, and 1 life and 1000 es. A hit for 900 damage (except chaos) of any kind will leave those same characters with the exact same amounts of points left to absorb damage before dying. All forms of damage mitigation (except chaos), will affect them the same way. Life and ES do not mitigate anything themselves, they are simply a maximum value of points of damage they absorb after damage calculation. It's the reason that a character with 1k life and another with 1k ES pool will have the exact same ehp values. Life and ES act in the same because they are the basis for "effective health pool". " Armor is a form of physical damage mitigation that protects both ES and hp equally. In fact, pretty much every mitigation form protects ES and life equally, because ES and life perform the same role. ES mitigates no damage and functions as hit points exactly like life. The only difference is that ES takes precedence in absorbing damage and does not absorb chaos damage. " The same can be said for you, but i don't see how ad hominem gets anyone anywhere. Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro#4713 on Jun 12, 2024, 9:44:34 AM
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"Yes, I understand how life and ES work, thanks (?). (And the middle one should be 501 life, I assume) "Again, you do not need to explain the mechanics. It's hard to see how this is a response to what you're quoting; it feels like you're arguing against positions that haven't been taken. It's also, I would argue, not correct. ES mitigates 100% of the damage applied to it (up to its maximum value), as shown by the fact that without it, 100% of that damage would go to life and thus your character would be hurt. That's what damage mitigation is about: preventing damage to your life. ES performs its mitigation by absorbing the whole amount rather than by reducing the magnitude or throwing away some attacks entirely, but it is nonetheless mitigating damage. The relevant difference between life and ES is that you don't die if you lose all your ES. Because, as I was saying, it is 'outside' the character (their actual life), protecting them. "There was no ad hominem there. Ad hominem is not just a synonym for criticism. |
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No, it doesn't look like you do understand. Both life and ES work linearly, while basically everything else works multiplicatively, based on hit pool (life and es). Again, life and es function as hit points. The same quantity with any interpolation of life and es will protect the same chatacter in the same way after damage calculation.
It's literally irrelevant if damage bypasses es or not, the only relevant thing is if the combination of both life and es let's you survive that hit. "You mean for the purposes of your own thoughts. You can have whatever arbitrary definitions of words that you like of course, that's fine." These phrases have no purpose other than trying to indirectly attack him and his arguments with baseless accusations, when in fact they are on point. Ruthless should be [Removed by Support]. Last edited by AdRonZh3Ro#4713 on Jun 12, 2024, 12:03:35 PM
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The sheer existence of Chaos Innoculation tells you that Life and ES are essentially treated as "equal" in terms of function. You trade ALL your life away, because ES acts as life. The only reason we are left with 1 life and not zero is simply a quirk of the game programming, equating 0 life to death-state. This cannot be overridden and so we are left with an ES "lifepool" and......1 useless life.
Gus is right too, in that the game itself describes ES as a defense. HOWEVER, it does not function as a defense when you compare it to every single other defensive mechanism available to us in the game. It acts like life, and is even described as "an additional lifepool" rather than a "shield". We are both right on this, but Gus is stuck in semantic-land and we are stuck in function-land. And I can guarantee that he will absolutely REFUSE to understand that life and es do NOT behave in the same way as armour/evasion/mitigation/etc. He will stand on his hill and pick apart every little thing either of us says because that's what he does. He isn't interested in understanding our point. But yes...this is a complete sidetrack from the original post which is still an incredibly strange and misguided attempt to justify a SINGLE defense's power (regardless of how you define "defense", in this case it fits everything). My argument still stands: there is not a single "defense" in this game, when taken alone, that is more or less powerful than any other, more or less supported than any other, more or less open to stacking than any other. Witch, with access and lean towards ES, is in the single greatest SOLO DEFENSE spot in the game. ES is the easiest "defense" to stack, supported by the tree and massive gear rolls, while also being supported by various OTHER ES mechanics that are uber powerful when combined with pretty much everything else the game offers us. OP seems to be obsessed with this odd notion of "Pure ES"...whatever the heck that means. There is no "pure" anything in PoE. And he continuously compares this non-existent "pure ES" to powerful combinations of defenses, while also refusing to acknowledge the similar powerful combos that ES offers. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Jun 12, 2024, 12:16:04 PM
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Oh yes, i do agree that es offers powerful combos, i have even listed them. And yes im obsessed with this pure es, because simply in the end i think it would be cool to have more viable options like this es stacking which thematically represents witch at her core. Why is it wrong to want more options? I just feel like that those other combos just pushes away from thematic witch to either some sneaky shadow or templar. And thats just it, thematic reasons.
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" but this is not at all what you said in your OP, nor in ANY of your responses! Do you see that?! There is nothing wrong with this^, but there is EVERYTHING wrong with all the other stuff you have said. Read your first post, re-read your responses. You are not requesting more options, you were only attacking an existing option incorrectly. Personal Opinion (not an absolute fact): ES is not at all a witch-themed mechanic. This isn't suggested anywhere in the game (besides I guess starting placement), nor does it even fit her own ascendancies. You have this bias that witch should be top dog in ES, but you ALSO show examples for other classes that excel at ES. So....how can it be thematically ONLY the witches when even by your own admission it doesn't exist that way in the game? Templar, thematically, has just as much right to ES as a witch imo. Shadow? Same thing, mostly because of the Trickster. Scion as well. I would actually argue the only thing that yells "witch specialty" to me, generally, is Spell Suppression. Why is the master of spells not the master of spell suppression too? Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Jun 12, 2024, 1:37:58 PM
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"You keep saying things like this as if I have disputed them somewhere. This is bizarre. "I know. My points are nothing to do with whether damage bypasses ES. "I have not attacked him. I criticised his arguments as flimsy (which was a summary, after I showed specifically why they are flimsy) and you immediately complained about “ad hominem”. Then here again you quote phrases which are also not me attacking him. I didn’t just say he means for the purposes of his own thoughts (not that it’s an attack anyway, but hey): it was immediately followed with a demonstration showing that “for the purposes of POE” was not correct. In the second quote here I am literally saying it’s fine for him to have his own definitions! How can you possibly call that an attack? Do you think “arbitrary” is an insult or something? It just means our personal definitions don’t need to be justified to anyone or any system, we can make them whatever we want. "See this is getting into ad hominem. If you guys actually cared about your logical fallacies. I won’t hold my breath. My argument from the outset has been based on function, and I have explained the functions each time. We are all in “semantic land” when discussing semantics. You included. But semantic land and function land are not two exclusive locations, they are independent categories, meaning they can overlap. All our semantic arguments are based on function. We have each made semantic arguments based on function. It’s not one or the other. "What on earth are you talking about? This is a complete fabrication, a lie. At no point have I disputed that ES works differently to other means of mitigating damage. I have specifically acknowledged that it works differently. They all work differently to each other, there would be no reason for them all to exist otherwise. I just don’t need that to mean it’s disqualified from being called a defence. I’m just not following a classification rule you made up. "Right, whereas you are being very understanding, once again making everything personal as soon as you’re questioned. If you want to post without people immediately showing ways your definitions fall over, post more robust definitions, don’t lash out at me. |
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" Have you reviewed poeninja? there are examples of pure ES stacking, specific for witch all ascendencies if you were interested. https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis?class=Necromancer,Occultist,Elementalist&sort=energyshield If you look overall though, it would appear hierophant and ascendent have more tools to stack higher ES https://poe.ninja/builds/necropolis?sort=energyshield but most of these builds have no evasion, mostly armour here and there just to reduce incoming damage. |
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