Suggestion: Leech to be based on base damage instead of damage dealt for PoE1 and PoE2
|
Spoiler
I made a post like the title in Reddit, but I was left with the thought that GGG might not see the post, so here I am just trying to improve its visibility. I don't mind if this suggestion does not come into fruition, but I would be happy if I felt GGG might have discussed the implementation. I'll be adding some extra thoughts into this Forum posts end, to highlight the possibilities for different interactions.
The original Reddit post: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1b6dc0q/suggestion_leech_to_be_based_on_base_damage/ I can't remember exactly where, but I remember someone from GGG mentioning player recovery is a problem in creating encounters, because if the encounters are not designed to have one shots, then the encounters are trivialized by quick leech and regeneration. In this post I'm making a quick suggestion for leech, so GGG could at some point start reducing the need for one shot designs. The amount of leech currently depends on the damage dealt, meaning to scale leech players take in addition to normal leech stats increased and more damage modifiers, scaling recovery with leech and damage in conjunction to infinity. This is kinda how all of the old damage over time ailments used to work before, where we could take increased attack damage to increase poison damage and etc. The latter was nerfed because it was no brainer to take poison chance with many of the builds, and true separate dot archetypes were introduced to the game. ## Leech rework suggestion ## Apply the old damage over time nerf to leech, and use the base and added damage bonuses before any increases and reductions to the hit damage to determine the size of the leech recovery. This has several effects: - Leech is now reliably consistent regardless of enemy damage reductions and player debuffs, excluding modifiers that specifically reduce or nullify leech or recovery. - Player characters have an equal amount of leech in many cases, including even if they take Perfect Agony or not. - Reduce the number of scaling factors for leech amount to something that is more manageable. Could even simplify the mechanic by removing the need for max cap for single leech instance and for total leech cap, but that's probably wishful thinking. - Bonus: I'll be honest, I would like the most if leech had diminishing returns, making small investments worth it. The only thing I can think of is to add 1% more leech resistance for each % of life recovered per second with leech, but I'm unsure if that complicates things or not. :D The goal with the rework would be to scale the leech by the leech % of base damage, recovery rate, leech recovery rate, base damage modifiers and maybe from a new modifier, faster leech rate. Simplification and balancing are the keywords. And depending on things, the leech % of damage dealt could still exist in very specific places, like in ascendancies or uniques. ## Additional rework suggestions ## The leech rework would probably be bad if it happened in a void. Specifically because other recovery mechanics still would exists that can trivialize encounters without one shots, like life regeneration and life recoup builds. Here's some other deranged suggestions to think about: - Bleed rework, where bleed applies 50% reduced life recovery rate to target as a baseline. This affects all life recovery targets and builds, players and monsters, unless immune to bleed. Then change some bleed immunity mods to a more common "no damage received from bleed" mods so it's not so easy to avoid bleed effect all together. - Effective hit point rework, where we change all % increases to life, mana and energy shield in the passive tree to flat amounts, so players have less scaling factors for a huge health pool so they can together with regeneration ignore most of the small hits in the game. ## Additional thoughts compared to the Reddit post ## We could instead of monsters having leech resistance have monster defenses reduce the leech amount. With my rework suggestions and balancing acts, it would mean that if a monster reduced the physical hit damage 40% with armor, it would apply 40% reduction to the leech from base physical damage, which should be quite a lot with the rework. In our example, if the added phys damage was 100, then only 60 would be effectively counted for. In this case player penetration would scale the leech, and Slayer Ascendancy could have something like "50% damage penetration for leech effect". The description for leech could say something like "x% of base physical damage dealt is leeched as life". Maximum leech and leech instance caps are there because leech scales currently too well with damage scaling. If it was not so easy to hit the caps, we could remove them and have more intuitive scaling modifiers for leech. It does not really feel consistent leech is the only recovery capped when recoup and regen can also break the game. It's been quite rare recently for me, but I still do remember the sudden deaths a damaging ailment or a ground effect brought to me the moment I killed the rare monster making them, because there was nothing to leech from anymore. The leech is removed when reaching full life, but any damaging ailment or ground effect stays for their full duration. It was not fun to die from these, but I managed. :D This could be avoided, if the leech was not removed at full life, but instead no new leech instances could be created at full life. This could either be a mastery, unique, passive or a baseline feature to leech. I can't say if the problem is because of the overreliance of leech, or if the leech would need to be more reliable but less effective. Slayer is not unique with its Leech ascendancy options. Basically any class with enough damage and 1% damage leech can gain the same survival strength as the Slayer with its whole leech options. ## Your ideas ## Do you think leech is too easy to scale? Would you like to see more Slayer dot builds with leech? Or have more builds with The Retch? Is this important? Am I looking at the wrong problem? Last bumped on Apr 15, 2024, 4:32:29 AM
This thread has been automatically archived. Replies are disabled.
| |
|
i would argue the actual problem is that GGG doesnt want players to trivialize their content.
players have many ways to increase their defences. the entire reason why we have huge damage spikes is because thats the only way GGG can expect to kill the top 0.01 % players. any balancing that GGG does TICKLES the top percenters, by the time the nerf trickles all the way down to the weaker players, they get hit hard. if you're hitting 1million dps/sec with 1% life leech, thats 10k life leech/sec. with instant leech you're constantly refilling your entire life pool indefinitely. they rebalanced the life leech so that you recover life leech over time, 2% of max life per leech, 20% of max life per second (if you have 10 leeches hitting at once during that 1 second) so you need 5 seconds to recover all life. for strong players, their defense could be crazy high, having tons of mitigation even past 90% resist via less damage taken. so despite leech reworks theyre still fine. however if you're not there yet. leech can feel bad. especially at low levels. its so bad flasks are much more reliable than leeching for most of the leveling process. that said i think leech is in a "healthy" spot. might not need to change it. i do have gripes against ggg for allowing "players cannot leech life" mod on mobs. [Removed by Support]
|
|
" I was corrected about this very same thing just a few weeks back. Just wanted to let you know instant leech still respects the leech cap limits. At least according to wiki. https://www.poewiki.net/wiki/Leech#Instant_leech " The leech scaling is what makes it weird to me. Imagine at the end game having one node taken from the passive tree for life regeneration, and being happy with its effectiveness for life recovery. That's what it feels like with life leech for me: investing one node and the 20% leech cap is enough. During the campaign though, for me things have required a bit more balanced investments between leech, regen, life on hit and flasks to make them work. I can't say for recoup mechanics though, because I have not yet tried them. Comparing end game results with low level results is not entirely fair, but I'll bite. I was saying to balance the leech investment requirements, and not saying to stop end game leech builds with their high defenses, let them have their fun. And I was not saying to make the early game leeching bad either, for I was interested in allowing more archetypes to work with leech without the need investing to increased hit damage modifiers. I was under the assumption we already have a lot more added flat damage from skills and weapons available relative to increases and more damages in the early game, when comparing their relativity to the end game. I think we get more increase and more damage modifiers than flat damages as we progress, but I could be wrong. In that regards, the rework already would have a fairly strong position in the early game. " I do agree leech feels good in the end game, but is it entirely fair for the amount of investments it needs? I'm somewhat perfectly fine if this is GGGs intention on how leech is supposed to work, but I'm seeing room for improvements with the difficult to read leech mechanics, with double dipping leech effectiveness with all increases to hit damage, and with the lack of unique Slayer leech options like in the far past. Everything Slayer had is now available to everyone in one way or another, some even fairly easily. As an example you'll only need Petrified Blood to stop life leech stacks from being removed on full life. | |
|
Ya lets screw over 1 of the very very very slight positives to playing a melee build [Removed by Support]
Last edited by Tai_GGG#0000 on Mar 15, 2024, 11:43:35 AM
|
|
" I think you meant this screws all non-melee based leech builds? Melee has some of the easiest leech options, so the extra investments are not that hard on them. Last edited by Celd#2630 on Mar 15, 2024, 3:19:14 AM
| |
" oh wow. thanks man thats something i didnt know too [Removed by Support]
|
|
" Speccing into anything extra as a melee is incredibly hard on you. if you had 20 extra skill points on a bottom left build still wouldn't make it stronger than a spell build with the same gear investment. you need a mirror weapon if you're playing melee phys to compete with a +1 cast speed wand that is easy to craft. Melee builds outside of slayer don't really spec into more than 1 point on the tree unless they're playing slayer. The main exception is in the top right of the tree where you get lgoh and life/mana leech and the mastery for 3 points. if you want leech mastery on bottom left it costs you 4 points and if you aren't going to precise technique you also need a viridian jewel for mana leech or you have to solve mana another way. |
|
" Well you got me there. Indeed if we make it so we need more leech investments, that doesn't mean the melee will do any better with the current stats that are there. Balancing would be a different kind of can of worms if we would want to give melee an edge to leech mods. The problem here is that any class can become melee, and the good attack leech nodes are in the str + dex portions of the passive tree, and those do not differentiate between melee and ranged. But if we give an obvious separate advantage for melee leech into the passive tree, then we dilute build variety some amount, though I can't say if it would be significant. But I do know we want the passive tree to be generally helpful to many build archetypes, so its probably better to imagine the tree won't change. The second option for balancing I can see is items. For example craftable melee leech nodes to jewels and weapons with explicits and corrupt implicits. Corrupt implicits was included so unique melee weapons could also be utilized. And/or have bottom base damage increased for melee weapons without moving the ceiling for high end builds to get better started with leech and general damage without needing such expensive and rare weapons. It's all hypothetical, but yeah I wasn't fully expecting for my suggestion to work out of the box anyway. But I'm glad to be having these conversations. :D | |
" You misunderstand how leech works here....the MAXIMUM you can recover per second is 20% of your max life REGARDLESS of the damage dealt. So if you have 5000 life, you can ONLY ever recover 1000 life per second, unless you have sources of "max recovery per second". 1 million damage, 5000 max life, x% leech = 1000 life per second, not 10k. And this is even assuming 10 hits per second which actually is....quite hard unless you have some serious AoE. Yet another way that strike skills get the shaft... You....sort of corrected yourself in the last sentence but didn't change your equation. Instant leech works in the same way: limited by LIFE rather than DAMAGE. With 10% intsant leech, you can get UP TO 2% of your maximum life instantly, hitting 10x a second for maximum leech. In the case of 5000 life, that is 100 life per second instant leech MAX TBH, now that damage numbers are WAY higher than they were back during the creation of leech mechanics, I think the %s do need to change. It is far too easy to get to the 20% max life cap in a single leech instance nowadays, usually just a single node. I think MANY players do not actually understand how leech is NOT limited on your damage but rather your lifepool and grabbing more %damage leech actually does nothing. Last edited by jsuslak313#7615 on Mar 16, 2024, 10:10:49 AM
|
|
|
^Forgot to say.....I think this is precisely what the OP was getting at, and I agree. It is FAR too easy to get to max leech with %damage mods because of how much damage we deal. Therefore it does make sense that it should be based on some kind of pre-buffed damage numbers, at least if the current equation and mod values are to be retained.
HOWEVER, there should be more ways to increase max leech per second, especially or perhaps uniquely for melee builds. |
|
