Death Penalty

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alhazred70 wrote:

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morganbritches wrote:

They made an entire game mode that is harder than hardcore?

So I take it you're implying that SC trade doesn't need death penalty any more because there are harder modes?

This is a fair point, but one that's been gone over many times in the past. Lots of current players who enjoy the "easiest mode" (Hell I played SC trade this past league for the first time since probably Synthesis and enjoyed a bit of faceroll for some short term fun I'm not looking down on it just being real) and not everyone really wants it to become easier. Personally I would argue that SC trade is already super trivial. Players buying Magebloods in 2-3 days supports this contention in any sort of good faith argument I feel.

So given that; if you guys want to start a thread titled:

"we need an even easier mode of POE"

I wont push back against that.

But I'd say the game really needs a medium mode of the game between SSF and Trade before they go and make "creative mode" a thing and ESPECIALLY if they were hypothetically to make SC trade even more silly by removing the penalty. I could see a world where they make creative mode with no XP penalty and also actually make SC trade a bit less easy. Could also get on board with adjusting all the current modes into something resembling a sane balance curve.

I don't *like* the penalty but it's more due to how trivial it actually is to many players, most of the people complaining here can't afford a 5-way for 15 divs or whatever, so they are coming from a different place but really, they could leave it and I'll stick around.

What it seems like though, is when someone starts a thread out of frustration over it, the invariable arguments come mostly from HC players and a great many of those arguments are something to the tune of "in HC, I die for good, so you don't have it that bad" or "something something fundamental existential gratification for achievement needs to exist to incentivize self-improvement etc." . HC is elective, so is ruthless, I'm not sure if the addition of ruthless put the HC players in some weird limbo now, but it clearly was made to make the game more "hardcore" and no one wants it. I'd also point out most of the playerbase does not seem to be that hardcore, because they aren't playing that mode. That's what is putting the beans on GGGs plate, buying the foofy wings and whatnot. I can't fathom why someone playing a different game mode would actually care if standard becomes easier or not, standard players aren't asking that hardcore players get 3 chances before they actually die are they? They aren't peeing in the HC cornflakes.

It seems more like hardcore or SSF players are projecting their frustrations over the experience in those modes, and comparing them, which would be much better suited for a new thread on that topic, instead of dogpiling on the person going through standard that isn't glued to POB and having rough time.

The whole other argument of teaching people about the value of hardship? Look, I'm not going to get into what I do IRL, but it is incredibly dangerous and I'm here to play a videogame in my off-season to enjoy myself. GGG has obviously gone out of their way to make HC, HCSSF and now ruthless, for what is statistically the minority of players to have the miserable experience they want. They have gone out of their way to cater to it. Removing the XP penalty from standard, although probably not as important as people make it seem, is not going to have have some ripple effect on HC, it isn't backsliding and it doesn't impact anyone not in standard. So who cares?

I play every mode, but HC barely ever due to sketchy internet.

My motivation is not wanting my choices to be less important and removing the XP penalty does that. Its really that simple.

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alhazred70 wrote:

I play every mode, but HC barely ever due to sketchy internet.

My motivation is not wanting my choices to be less important and removing the XP penalty does that. Its really that simple.

They added the valdo boxes with perma-death, I think that made more than a few people's choices seem quite heavy in retrospect. I could care less about it, it was pretty obvious and I wouldn't run one with voiding, but the xp penalty is applied just for choosing to play the game. I died to several desyncs in lab kicking me back into traps, after they doubled down on lab, because if it doesn't fit, they'll just force it, that isn't really allowing player agency in any specific sense. It's not punishing me for a risky decision, or some of the wonky AN mods with random one-hits in an otherwise mellow map? It feels more like the player is punished for engaging, that's not a good feel and I would argue is where the line gets crossed into bad design. This game doesn't run well enough for it and the forced online doesn't help.

These kind of requests aggravate me, because they are requesting the game be changed so they do not have to get better at the game.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

If I meant “don’t disagree” I would have said that.

it really doesn't matter, because its implied quite heavily.

No, as you said correctly the first time, you made an assumption due to other experiences you’ve had. That’s quite specifically not implication. These words have meanings.

The person I was responding to wasn’t making an argument against the suggestion, they were telling someone not to have a discussion on a discussion forum.

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sevens67 wrote:

These kind of requests aggravate me, because they are requesting the game be changed so they do not have to get better at the game.

That's a bit of an ad hominem, OP was complaining about the combination of penalties and their perception that the combination was excessive. That does not mean that they don't have a desire to become better at the game, it means that they found the current state of the game too difficult for their liking and were attempting to petition the developer to adjust it. Balancing a game around aggregate feedback and having a venue for it is in the developer's interest as well.

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

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GusTheCrocodile wrote:

If I meant “don’t disagree” I would have said that.

it really doesn't matter, because its implied quite heavily.

No, as you said correctly the first time, you made an assumption due to other experiences you’ve had. That’s quite specifically not implication. These words have meanings.

The person I was responding to wasn’t making an argument against the suggestion, they were telling someone not to have a discussion on a discussion forum.

Yeah if you don't see the implication you're either very unfamiliar with these forums or you're actually arguing in bad faith at this point.

Their comment is very understandable given any background knowledge of these forums. And TBH while I'm trying to take you at your word, your comment is also very typical of these threads.

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alhazred70 wrote:

Yeah if you don't see the implication you're either very unfamiliar with these forums or you're actually arguing in bad faith at this point.

I just don’t use implication to mean the same thing as inference. In this part of the world at least, implication is a stronger connection in a writer’s words, closer to a logical requirement (“If A is true, then B must be true”). Inference is something the reader does, a meaning they draw that may not have been written literally.

I’m not saying that the inference you drew isn’t understandable based on your experience of these forums. Just that the nature of making assumptions is that sometimes they’re not correct, and that I would appreciate my posts being judged on what I say, not on what other random strangers may have said at other times. I don’t think that’s unreasonable.

Anyway, that’s enough of that now I’m sure.

Hoho another topic with the attempt to beg for instant gratification.
Players these days are indeed heavily spoiled from other games these days.

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Pashid wrote:

Hoho another topic with the attempt to beg for instant gratification.
Players these days are indeed heavily spoiled from other games these days.

It's a videogame, you can play it laying in bed if you want. You're splitting hairs pointing fingers about instant gratification like kids these days don't know what it was like to have to milk the cow at 4am in the dark. Also, ad-hominem.