Endurance/Frenzy/Power CHARGEs

"

Sameen_Shaw wrote:

Claiming I dont make my own builds is quite bold of you anyway(via me not playing around with stuff/doing math). I literally play almost exlucively without guides and adjust the core build idea on the fly. You can claim whatever, but I killed most uber bosses on my build and delved to 700 with it(could go deeper to 800-900), which automatically puts me in the 1%. My lv99 character is quite literally the only lightning tendrils of eccentricity CI inquis on poe ninja affliction. Sadly you also delete your characters, so I cant nor want to judge you :)

I can only accept that as true and that's wonderful! I love hearing that people approach the game that way, as I personally think that's the ONLY way you'll actually learn the mechanics. But...you found something you like and you mastered it. Doesn't make you any less wrong about all the other stuff you have compared earlier lol. Perhaps you don't have enough experience with it or what...but there have been some really critical errors in your posts.

You obsess over very RARE, very minute interactions (such as pierce from Uber Bosses) and then proceed to claim how that invalidates that defense from EVERYTHING ELSE the game throws at you. Because the top top top top content is GOOD for defense comparison?! Smh man... All that content gives you is what the best possible setup might be for THAT unique scenario. This is what makes you wrong about almost everything else. It doesn't transfer to "regular" gameplay experienced by 99.9% of the rest of the players. Players who basically never encounter pierce. Players who NEVER have 100% physical conversion. Players who rarely have significantly overcapped resistances. Players who rely on "luck" instead of actual defense.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

In your first scenario, when you die 1 out of every 20 attacks....that is NOT tanky with "no real holes". The second scenario protects you AT ALL TIMES, and if your numbers are high enough, you don't eVER die.

You're talking like you're the god of PoE but I've literally never died to physical attack damage on a character with high Evasion. If you're that worried about it then just use a Lightning Coil -- and don't get me wrong Lightning Coil really is a great chest for Evasion characters, but it is definitely not required.

Also remember that Evasion isn't random. If you get hit by one physical attack then you need to soak 19 more attacks before you can get hit again by another physical attack. That's more than enough time to flask/leech/regen off the damage of the first attack.

Is it seriously too much to ask for people to actually reach endgame before they weigh in on game balance discussions? Watching YouTube videos does not make someone an expert on anything except watching YouTube videos.

I know we're getting slightly off topic here but let's all agree to set a higher standard of behavior, please? This isn't the League of Legends subreddit.

"

XCodesLIVE wrote:

You're talking like you're the god of PoE but I've literally never died to physical attack damage on a character with high Evasion. If you're that worried about it then just use a Lightning Coil -- and don't get me wrong Lightning Coil really is a great chest for Evasion characters, but it is definitely not required.

Also remember that Evasion isn't random. If you get hit by one physical attack then you need to soak 19 more attacks before you can get hit again by another physical attack. That's more than enough time to flask/leech/regen off the damage of the first attack.

editing myself: can't be mean!

For the record, Lightning Coil has NOTHING TO DO with evasion. Pathfinders don't use it because of evasion, they use it because of flask effect shenanigans with Taste of Hate and achieving 100% conversion. In fact, pathfinders are likely tankier if they proceed to do all that and then take Iron Reflexes and change all their evasion into armour.

Also, yes I am aware evasion isn't "random". But it still offers you NO protection, and a false sense of security. When you DIE to that 1/20 hit because you have no real mitigation, no amount of recovery is going to help you. And if you aren't dying to physical hits...you are most definitely not playing any kind of remotely challenging content. It is "random" in that, when you are zipping around killing mobs...you feel tanky because you are surviving and then...all of a sudden...you are going to die. It just WILL happen. It "feels" like you die randomly, because you have no idea that you actually have NO defense. The entropy system doesn't change this. The only way evasion starts to feel good is if you have 1 or 2 OTHER layers of protection, generally going to be SS and physical conversion / endurance charges / physical reduction pantheon.

For someone with very little actual experience playing actual challenging PoE content...and for someone with very little firsthand knowledge, you are most definitely going to feel like everyone else is acting like a know-it-all....because comparatively, they ARE. I really don't understand this need to comment on threads without having even a basic understanding of whats going on. Its not impressive, and everyone else may as well be Gods by comparison.

I agree with Caribbean...

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jsuslak313 wrote:

editing myself: can't be mean!

Cool, I get it. You don't want me posting here because your sense of self-importance demands that PoE be this impossible monolith of optimization where everything you don't do is noob bait and terrible and everything you do is the only way to play and if anyone else wants to know anything about the game then they have to come hat-in-hand to you, the now actually self-proclaimed God of PoE.

This is the reason PoE doesn't attract new players. The learning curve is a bit unforgiving at first, but mostly it's because this forum and other places where players might go to learn to play the game to get over that initial stage of learning curve are infested with people that nobody wants to interact with because they have a really stupid and toxic ego about a video game.

So yeah. You want me gone? I'm gone. Bye.

"

XCodesLIVE wrote:

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

editing myself: can't be mean!

Cool, I get it. You don't want me posting here because your sense of self-importance demands that PoE be this impossible monolith of optimization where everything you don't do is noob bait and terrible and everything you do is the only way to play and if anyone else wants to know anything about the game then they have to come hat-in-hand to you, the now actually self-proclaimed God of PoE.

This is the reason PoE doesn't attract new players. The learning curve is a bit unforgiving at first, but mostly it's because this forum and other places where players might go to learn to play the game to get over that initial stage of learning curve are infested with people that nobody wants to interact with because they have a really stupid and toxic ego about a video game.

So yeah. You want me gone? I'm gone. Bye.

No...I want you to post about something when you have something to contribute! You are talking about endgame defenses and optimization when you: have never beaten ANY boss. Have never completed all the maps in the atlas. Haven't achieved even a single voidestone. Completely ignored an entire class of character. NEVER corrupted a map. Never even ran a map with a vaal frag. etc. etc. I could go on.

I want you to enjoy the game. I want you to play the game. I want you to REALIZE that you have no business and offer NOTHING in conversations you clearly have no knowledge of.

You are clearly not on the forum to LEARN: you are hear to talk about things as if you know them...and then proceed to denigrate and ignore anyone and everyone who corrects you, no matter how nicely they START the conversation. In fact, in every conversation it becomes clear you don't even have any interest in learning anything but instead trying to "prove" that you know things, having little or no experience to back it up.

This isn't even an insult. You insult yourself by weighing into these things...

I would argue PoE forums and youtube is not friendly to newer players not because of folks like me, that pretty regularly try to HELP people get better, but rather because of folks on your side of the camp with a chip on their shoulder, expounding "knowledge" that is neither true nor useful, based on experience that doesn't exist, and generally acting like a shady conman.

The only way anyone can improve is to accept that you DON'T know everything, and be willing to learn from players with vastly more experience. Not attack them continuously and double and triple down on comments related to totally unknown mechanics.

spell sup is a bit overtuned atm, i think having it around 40-45% mitigation rather than 50% would have been better.


its not mandatory, i do understand why it can seem that way and why certain very knowledgeable streamers will make a throw away statement like that, if you really grilled them they would * that statement and have a bunch of qualifiers, exceptions etc. spell suppression is far from a cheap investment in terms of passives but its quite accessible for cheaper builds.

i think this is where these sort of statements come from cause its often a perspective of league starter situations, build guides, ladder/economy push tactics etc. how will i survive hc league starter with mostly self found/5 chaos gear? how will i push ubers day 4 of the league and make bank? how can i build an effective magic find character and survive red tier content?

spell suppression is reliably achievable in restrictive conditions. if someones farming ubers with 4k life and capped spell sup they have less ability to tank a hit than a char with 12k es and no sup, but youre not tornado shot mfing day 2 of the league with a 12k es character that has 85% all res.


its the same with a statement like grace/det are mandatory. theyre not but if youre talking to a hardcore streamer making a league starter you can understand why they would make a statement like that off the cuff.




personally i dont have much faith in characters that are not some form of hybrid between at least 2 of the 3 basic defence characteristics of damage reduction, damage avoidance and hit points pool.

i would say the weakest combo in my experience is going hit points + damage reduction, but the weakest solo layer is avoidance.

i think the strongest combo atm is generally avoidance + damage reduction, be that block + armour, evasion + armour, evasion + phys as ele. and when we talk about damage reduction its essentially phys because its taken for granted you are resist capped.


evasion on its own is awful in terms of being a char who never dies but ranger area has so many desirable attributes in terms of accessible speed and damage that it probably should be that way. frenzy are the most universally usful charges maybe but theyre arguably the hardest to generated/maintain and they are based in the most flawed of the 3 core defences area.




honestly if it were my game id probably turn suppression down to 40% mitigation. i think defences are largely fine balance wise outside of that and Im sort of fine with charges.

on the subject of charge stacking in general, i think what the ralak boots are doing is cool, it brings up fun interactions with the maven belts etc. very powerful tho, i think the way to deal with it is rarity.





mathil had a little rant recently about the boots and he said he doesnt want them to be the best boots for every build he makes. i get that, i had a similar problem with mageblood where i felt like its the bis belt for every build ive played in the last 11 years of poe. ive changed my opinion on really powerful uniques recently tho after a lot of thinking.

i dont think mathil says that about mageblood because its so rare, so expensive that you can dismiss it from build theory. when an item is 50c in a league if its your bis item then you cant look past that, when its 200 divines it becomes a bit like a mirror tier item where yes, that is technically bis but you dont build for those budgets so it doesnt effect decision making.




ive recently changed my thinking from "its bad when an uber unique like mageblood is bis for most builds" to thinking its actually a good thing. if mageblood were specific to a niche set of builds then that would warp the high end build game to that niche and dictate the meta. then what do you do? do you let the high end meta be defined by this niche item? you either let that subset of builds dominate forever, you balance those builds around requiring the item and hence destroy them for normal players or you destroy the chase item, all those are bad things.


when shavs was that item it forced everyone to be low life. it wasnt too bad in that it could be done for 1h attack or spell, but it meant at the time 2h attack either melee or bow was sub par in the high end.


mageblood is a lot more universal than that, i think that is actually the right way to go for a super chase unique. the ralak boots have that, you can do most build types with them, theyre very powerful, the game needs really powerful chase items that are fun like this but theyre also 40-70 chaos a pair in trade which just cannot be ok. if a mageblood was that price no one with sense would ever use another belt unless it was a HH blastingboy, that would be extremely unhealthy. at 180 divines however its fine, its actually a positive for the games health that we have these hugely powerful, desirable items.


I think ralakesh needs to go T0 asap and honestly I think Ivory Tower should probably join it even tho its a more niche item.



with the tower i think its just already so niche, its often used in horribly op builds and the supply just outstrips the demand so much that its just a free opportunity to make a drop feel more special in the game.

"

Snorkle_uk wrote:

personally i dont have much faith in characters that are not some form of hybrid between at least 2 of the 3 basic defence characteristics of damage reduction, damage avoidance and hit points pool.

i would say the weakest combo in my experience is going hit points + damage reduction, but the weakest solo layer is avoidance.

i think the strongest combo atm is generally avoidance + damage reduction, be that block + armour, evasion + armour, evasion + phys as ele. and when we talk about damage reduction its essentially phys because its taken for granted you are resist capped.


evasion on its own is awful in terms of being a char who never dies but ranger area has so many desirable attributes in terms of accessible speed and damage that it probably should be that way. frenzy are the most universally usful charges maybe but theyre arguably the hardest to generated/maintain and they are based in the most flawed of the 3 core defences area.

Love everything you wrote, and I agree with MOST of it. The only thing I would "slightly" disagree with are your strongest combos. Mostly because its not "Avoidance + Reduction", it's actually "Avoidance + 2 x Reduction" in every one of those scenarios. Block + Armor does NOTHING for elemental damage. Evasion + Armor does NOTHING for elemental damage. Evasion + Phys as Ele doesn't do ENOUGH for elemental damage. There is always an added layer: resistances and, more importantly, either overcapped max resists or flasks/items with reduced elemental damage taken, OR some form of reduced physical damage taken as well via endurance charges, IC, or pantheon.

1 form of reduction stacking is never enough, in any scenario. And that's where my main issue with things in this thread came from. SS is only ONE form of reduction, and it is not enough on its own no matter how strong. Pairing evasion with SS does nothing to cover the weaknesses of SS. It's actually here where endurance charge stacking can play a HUGE pivotal role in defensive power. Getting even 12-20% blanket physical reduction BEFORE then transferring that to elemental or getting 50% mitigated by SS is AWESOME and nearly un-obtainable anywhere else on those kinds of builds.

I'd also argue frenzy is actually the easiest charge to generate because we have TWO skills that provide them at an incredibly high rate: frenzy and blood rage. Endurance charges generally require you to get hit first to generate, which defeats the purpose of having them a bit...while power charges require ascendancy shenanigans or investment into crit in the first place.

Spell suppression being basically mandatory IN LATE GAME is due to 4 factors.
1/ there is way more HARD HITTING SPELLS than ATTACKS.
2/ there is no reduced effectives of spell suppression in bossing apart from rolling it on eater/exarch (if that is even possible, i dont alch them) and yeah there is pen, but that works basically in at LEAST half effectiveness against spell suppression
3/ it is easy to scale effect of spell suppression with easy-ish to get +%max res/+%prevent spell damage
4/ its way easier to get 100% spell supp than 90% all res(opportunity cost)

There is way more options to deal with small hits than there is to deal with big hits and if you "jsuslak313" look at my posts from that perspective, I did not say almost anything wrong in this thread. There is always something to find in both of our takes, when there is not full context of all the thoughts when writing the post. My whole point of looking at stuff in isolation stems from build making angle. One always layer defenses(as you can look at my build), but it is an opportunity cost game and you have to figure out answers to stuff like: I am vulnerable to phys hits? How do I counter it as good as possible in most efficient manner, which require you to understand each layer in isolation and be aware of synergies.

I don't see anything wrong with so called controversial take "armor is worse than phys taken as", since it is easy to mitigate the sub 25% of the hit with like 5+ other available ways how to deal with small damage. Overwhelm is far more dangerous than ele pen when comparing armor vs full conversion... If you start reading from original post, I excluded armor stacking and endurance charges on jugg in 1st and 2nd post. It is not my bad, that people come in and ignore part of my posts. You should also play your 1st character after 15000hours with 100% spell suppression and maybe then you can call what is and what is not close to mandatory.

There is reason why 70%~ of HC players run suppression and marauders path across half of the tree for PT and suppress. There is also reason why GGG was restricting more and more access to suppression over time(lowering craft values significantly)

Spell suppression would be way more balanced if:

A/ it prevented lower percentage of the damage and we lowered some of the values for certain bosses/abilities
B/ bosses would have lower ele pen(increasing effectiveness of stacking all res) and instead had some "Players have -10% to amount of Suppressed Spell Damage Prevented"
C/ smaller gap between hard hitting spells and ele attacks in boss fights(aka dont try to fight 400depth aul with 100% suppress and 75% resist - its awful experience if he rolls some dmg mods)

It would be pain to balance(as everything is), but I suspect addition of spell supp came in to compensate for the fortify rework, which hurt casters even more since they used to shield charge to get FULL fortify and now they cant.

I am not sure about ralakesh just moving to t0 pool. I would personally like to balance them different way -> add modifier which says "cannot generate charges", which would prevent this whole double dipping madness, while still keeping the boots very strong. Let's see what they surprise us with next league.