Endurance/Frenzy/Power CHARGEs

Looking at stacking any of these charges, I could not believe how underwhelming endurance charge stacking feels.

Frenzy/Power charges are already very strong by themselfs offensively. This gets amplified further by 1/voidbattery 2/ice bite 3/be a raider 4/+ base crit strike chance

Endurance charges, while giving decent phys dmg mitigation, they do nothing against ele dmg(they help to overcap res) and they also do nothing offensively, because endurance charge on melee stun is too weak.

I would love if endurance charges were on equal footing. some possible changes(ofc not all should be added):
1/buffing endurance charge on melee stun support
2/add ele mitigation 1-2%reduced elemental dmg taken per charge
3/add more slam/melee/support gems that scale with endurance charges.(trans tecslam should not consume all, so it can actually be played on non-gen cry builds)
4/ mittigation against degens

I actually think Endurance charges are way better designed than Power Charges.

Frenzy charges are clearly uber powerful. Basically for any build at any time
Endurance charges, similarly, are good no matter what. They unconditionally provide defensive bonuses

Power charges, on the other hand, do absolutely nothing....unless you are speccing into crit and aren't crit-capped. That leaves a very narrow timeframe where power charges are actually useful. Most power charge stackers aren't using them for the BASE power charge buff, but rather all the OTHER things you can get with Power charges via the spell damage keystone, Void Batteries, and the passive tree.


I think Endurance charges SORT OF follow the same pattern in that the elemental resists they offer only matters until you are capped or overcapped. BUT the difference is that the physical mitigation is ALWAYS good. And its actually quite high. And the fact that we have immortal call in the game makes then pretty darn powerful.

I was talking more about stacking it above the base line. You dont do it for the bonuses endurance charge provides. There is almost no reason to do so apart from playing jugg, who has higher bonuses from them or stacking frenzy + replica ferral fur on slayer.

In contrast you can stack power or frenzy charges on any character with at least some benefit(power charge on crit is strong compared to other supps, crit enabler, ice-bite, both are more multi in their way). Nobody will stack endurance charges just for PDR, when you can full phys to ele convert so easily. I think buffing endurance charge on melee stun would be the best way of giving at least more value for bottom left side oriented builds, while buffing melee/slams alongside.

endurance charge on melee stun -> 4% more dmg per stack, unreliable endurance charge generation and competing with 50% more dmg supports like melee phys, close combat etc...

power charge on crit -> 4% more multi, reliable way to get power charges quickly, crit synergy, keystone for power charges, void battery

Ice bite -> strong synergy with frostbreath and frenzy charges are super strong themselfs

I just think there is almost no reason to sacrifice at least 7 skill points to get +3 endurance charges, when the builds in that area have already that much pressure on skill points. Unless you go 11+ charges, you will never use endurance charge on melee stun.

Well you also have brutal charge play too now for endurance stacking.

I actually do pretty regularly grab some extra endurance charges if I'm at the end of my build and im in that last 5-10 passive points that can sorta go anywhere. No other nodes have as much blanket defensive power as endurance charges at that point. And unless you ARE doing conversions and things like that, physical reduction is typically the thing most lacking in many builds.

But you are correct that there are more options to benefit from stacking power and frenzy charges.....but that is because the meta of PoE right now is "best defense is a good offense". I would NOT like our only defensive charge to also become yet another offensive buff. I like your idea of having it offer flat ele reduction instead of resists tho.

Min charges enable you to take advantage of the ele resists provided by endurance charges and also resist enemies that strip your charges on hit. Overcapping is also a useful thing to do sometimes to resist ele weakness curses, so endurance charges give you a different way to do that.

As for endurance charge on melee stun, I think it's *fine* given it's mana multiplier. It's certainly narrow in scope, but that's fine by me. It's pretty easy to get an absurd number of max endurance charges, and this gem is probably a solid option if your max is even just 8 or 9.

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XCodesLIVE wrote:

As for endurance charge on melee stun, I think it's *fine* given it's mana multiplier. It's certainly narrow in scope, but that's fine by me. It's pretty easy to get an absurd number of max endurance charges, and this gem is probably a solid option if your max is even just 8 or 9.

Mana gets solved eventually by - life mastery + 2x elreon craft and if softcore mb + flask with reduced mana cost. That is not factor at all. It is literally competing with
- Melee phys 49/54more multi and 0.9 attack speed
- pulverise 49 more multi and 0.85 attack speed + area
- close combat(axes are just best 2h) - 39 more multi
- brutality - 39/44 more multi
- impale - just insane dmg boost

the only place where it can outshine these is in ele based builds based on attack speed or the weird dual nebuloch boneshatter build on jugg. That build will be severely nerfed by ralakesh nerf anyway. endurance on melee stun should be at least 5% if not 6% more multi to justify stacking endurance charges over the other support options. 6% might be too much considering you can get 12~ charges easily in trade environment, but since it is melee support, I still think it would not be busted at all. Do not forget the builds, that would use it are so severely underpowered in both damage and defense compared to builds from right side of the tree.

I think you underrate the attack speed penalties on those hard-hitting supprots. If things die in one hit then fine, but against everything else they're pretty mid for DPS. ECOS Support will break even with pulverise at 8 and Melee Phys at 9 charges in those cases.

Given that leling support gems isn't any kind of time investment, anymore, it could be fair to bump it up to 5%, but I think 6% is definitely too much. Remember that the primary use of this support is to generate endurance charges.

Edit: of course, you're probably not replacing pulv or melee phys, you're probably replacing brutality or close combat. The lower attack speed isn't a big deal considering the higher hit damage gets you stuns that generate charges.

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XCodesLIVE wrote:

Remember that the primary use of this support is to generate endurance charges.

Edit: of course, you're probably not replacing pulv or melee phys, you're probably replacing brutality or close combat. The lower attack speed isn't a big deal considering the higher hit damage gets you stuns that generate charges.

You are definitely not relying on endu charge on stun as a way to get endurance charge. Inexorable, enduring cry, enduring composure are the reliable ways to generate them, the support is at best refreshing them. You have to beat 39% more multi to replace close combat(which also provides other bonus) and 44% more to beat awakened brutality, which also has other benefits. You really need to get to at least 10 endurance charges, which in normal league without ralakesh you have almost no reason to do. The main problem is you cant compare no endurance charges vs 10+. You have to compare 3-5 vs 10-12 and imho stretching the tree and gear to get to the 10-12 is not worth unless you abuse current ralakesh/arn's interaction.

Endurance charge stacking has it's use cases even without the ralakesh/arns interaction for double dipping.
For one, it's a way to cover physical damage on transcendence builds like Quin did with his 7/7 uber killer build. There is also tec slam of cataclysm either used raw or via generals cry to fuel a mega nuke skill. BS Nebuloch has already been mentioned.

Certainly endurance charges don't scream "powerful" in your face like frenzy charges but the relations in this game between the 3 attributes/colors aren't designed to be symetrical. STR might have the weakest charges while dex has the strongest. But STR also have the most powerful guard skills while dex has literally nothing on that front.

If you don't feel like endurance charges do much for your build, don't use them. It's not like you are gated by starting position or attributes when it comes to charge generation nowadays. You can get the base 3 frenzy charges for any build with no effort and even stacking beyond that isn't out of the question. It's a bit of a travel for marauder but for duelist it's a non issue.

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Baharoth15 wrote:

If you don't feel like endurance charges do much for your build, don't use them. It's not like you are gated by starting position or attributes when it comes to charge generation nowadays. You can get the base 3 frenzy charges for any build with no effort and even stacking beyond that isn't out of the question. It's a bit of a travel for marauder but for duelist it's a non issue.

...and then said Duelist turns those Frenzy charges into Endurance charges, too. All while being next to the Endurance/Frenzy charge cluster. *Then* throw Ralakesh onto *that*...