Endurance/Frenzy/Power CHARGEs

I'd be remiss if I didn't point this out....and I generally hate to do this:

You appear have ZERO full conversion characters, ZERO suppression-capped characters, ZERO pathfinders, ZERO lcoil, etc...on your account.

Why are you saying all this stuff is mandatory and uber strong when it seems you don't feel the need to, or haven't ever played with it? Even you PERSONALLY seem to be doing just fine without everything you arguing about....


I don't like to creep like that usually because you could have easily deleted those characters....like I do with all my old ones, so if I'm way off base cuz you deleted them I'm sorry. Perhaps this is your first time exploring all the OTHER defenses the game has to offer and you just haven't figured them out yet....knowledge stuck in the "SS is MANDATORY" camp for way too long.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Quick Comparison: 85% fire resistance = you resist 85% of incoming fire damage
100% spell suppression (hit by fire spell) = you resist 50% of incoming fire damage.

Hmmm.....interesting! The MANDATORY defense is WEAKER than overcapped resistances? And thats only if it was a spell dealing the fire damage too!

Dont ignore base 75% max res. You get it out of the box.
You can compare 75% res + 100% suppression vs 90% res - which is 87.5% vs 90%, where 90% res will as well be way better against non spells aka dots and ele attacks, but at the same time if you mix in boss pen the 90% max res becomes significantly weaker and many endgame content(where defenses actually matter has pen and quite a bit of it). Add that to the fact that its quite hard to get 90% all res unless you play chieftain or trade league while right side of the tree easily caps the suppress and it just ends up being much better. You guys dont have to lash on me. Go and ask any HC player or HC streamer.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

I'd be remiss if I didn't point this out....and I generally hate to do this:

You appear have ZERO full conversion characters, ZERO suppression-capped characters, ZERO pathfinders, ZERO lcoil, etc...on your account.

Why are you saying all this stuff is mandatory and uber strong when it seems you don't feel the need to, or haven't ever played with it? Even you PERSONALLY seem to be doing just fine without everything you arguing about....


I don't like to creep like that usually because you could have easily deleted those characters....like I do with all my old ones, so if I'm way off base cuz you deleted them I'm sorry. Perhaps this is your first time exploring all the OTHER defenses the game has to offer and you just haven't figured them out yet....knowledge stuck in the "SS is MANDATORY" camp for way too long.

I remove all my characters when the league ends as you suspected. I dont have any standard characters. I played pathfinder(first char years ago), SC slayer, armor stacker chief last league(not 1 passive voices budget tho), many many slam builds prior fourtvow with suppress and this league my lightning tendrils inquis(didnt kill uber maven and uber uber elder this league - quit league before doing so).

The thing about spell suppression + evaaion + leech is that it's good enough and doesn't leave any real holes in your defense. Even hits that ignite, bleed, or poison still need to hit you in the first place. Evasion will get you around any attack hits that might inflict ailments and there's a Spell Suppression Mastery that makes it so you can't get ignited by spells. Since spells don't bleed, that just leaves spells that poison, so you can optionally pick up a flask that removes poison or just keep a good life flask around.

Armor + ec + max res + regen + fortify is more investment, has a windup time, and even when it's fully going does barely anything against Chaos damage, so you need to invest more gear into Chaos resistance. Don't get me wrong, it fundamentally works, but for all the skill points and gear you put into it, it's pretty mid. You basically only have an advantage against unevadable attacks, which are pretty much just done by bosses (and which you probably dodge, anyway).

Like I said before, there are a lot of ways to mitigate this, and one of the ways would indeed be adding some offensive features to Endurance charges. It won't reduce the investment cost, but it will give you a bit more bang for your point investment. Maybe we don't even need something on the passive tree, but rather maybe we can just have a good, unique item like a pair of gloves or something that gives you a per-EC damage increase. Not a ring that competes with Precursor's Emblem, but something a bit more generally useful than Surgebinders -- probably still taking the gloves slot.

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Sameen_Shaw wrote:

My dude you are cherry picking. My list of of defensive layers was discribing them in isolation not combined together.

That's exactly the problem with your argument. You are looking at each layer in a vacuum without considering the synergys they have when combined. Yes, looking at the full picture makes things more complicated but reality IS complicated. Try to simplify too much and you end up with false conclusions.

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XCodesLIVE wrote:

The thing about spell suppression + evaaion + leech is that it's good enough and doesn't leave any real holes in your defense. Even hits that ignite, bleed, or poison still need to hit you in the first place. Evasion will get you around any attack hits that might inflict ailments and there's a Spell Suppression Mastery that makes it so you can't get ignited by spells. Since spells don't bleed, that just leaves spells that poison, so you can optionally pick up a flask that removes poison or just keep a good life flask around.

Armor + ec + max res + regen + fortify is more investment, has a windup time, and even when it's fully going does barely anything against Chaos damage, so you need to invest more gear into Chaos resistance. Don't get me wrong, it fundamentally works, but for all the skill points and gear you put into it, it's pretty mid. You basically only have an advantage against unevadable attacks, which are pretty much just done by bosses (and which you probably dodge, anyway).

ALL of this is wrong...no real holes in your first scenario? How about ALL physical damage and attacks? You are paper thin against all things physical, PLUS it requires similar investment to cap SS, have high enough evasion as your second scenario. Point for point, you see its probably actually LESS investment to get Armor, Max Resists, and Fortify. There is NO windup time either...unless you are relying on endurance charges to cap resists for some reason, which no proper build does. Even removing fortify from the equation and comparing directly Armor + Max resists to Evasion + SS....Armor + max resists is incomparably stronger in all scenarios the game throws at you EXCEPT uber bossing. And then you get into how they interact with a third layer of defenses such as conversion or other specialties and the difference becomes even more pronounced.

In your first scenario, when you die 1 out of every 20 attacks....that is NOT tanky with "no real holes". The second scenario protects you AT ALL TIMES, and if your numbers are high enough, you don't eVER die.


So.....at this point, I've said all I need to say. Both of you guys unfortunately are objectively and factually incorrect about defenses, but are incredibly dug in with however you "learned" what you know. It's not worth going back and forth anymor, because EVERY response so far has been FACTUALLY incorrect; we aren't even talking "opinion" here, we are talking NUMBERS and mitigation. We could do mathematical analyses of ANY situation in this game and I can literally prove to you why the things you say that are "weak" or "worse" are, in fact, BETTER...but that would take way too much time. I highly suggest you do some real research into non-evasion builds. It's not that SS or evasion aren't strong, I've never said they aren't. But they aren't NEARLY as strong as you both seem to think they are when you compare them to all the other options.

And for the record, I agree with Baharoth....analyzing "in isolation" is a wonderful way to prove incorrect statistics because NOTHING occurs in isolation in this game, and if you were to only build ONE defense in isolation, no matter WHAT that defense is, your character would be WORSE than paper thin. You need to AT LEAST compare 1 base defense (armour, evasion, ES) with 1 extra defense (SS, Conversion, Flat reduction) to get a truer picture.....and then you need to leave avoidance and recovery completely out of the analysis. Avoidance is 100% meaningless when you don't avoid, and recovery is 100% meaningless if you die.

90% of the reason why evasion + SS appears more popular is not that its stronger or requires less investment.....its simply because the popular BUILDS tend to set you up on the right side of the tree, and you work with whatever you can actually GET. And offense = the best overall defense in the current meta. REAL defense generally means less top end dps.

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Sameen_Shaw wrote:

. You guys dont have to lash on me. Go and ask any HC player or HC streamer.

I suspected this and it explains a lot. I prefer to do my own thinking, and I trust my own 15000 hours of experience in this game over a random streamer I know absolutely nothing about. Plus I trust the math and the work I've done in PoE across years of playing this game and 100s+ different builds.

You have been told things repeatedly, accepted it as undisputed truth, seek similar builds and videos that corroborate what you already know, and likely have done LITTLE of your own tinkering, exploration, and learning. THAT'S why this thread exists in the first place and that's why we aren't going to get anywhere.

@OP: you started also drifting into ONLY talking about uber bossing in your last post (because defenses mean nothing in all other content....your words). If THAT is your actual intent then we are having a VERY different conversation, and you are dealing with a much much much much narrower field of vision with far less players involved.

Can't be talking about game-wide changes and game-wide mechanics when you are SPECIFICALLY targeting the highest most difficult content that less than a fraction of 1% of players are ever even doing in the first place.

That's like if I were complaining about how weak and ineffective lightning resistance is.....if there were no sources of lightning damage in the game. You are only NOW arbitrarily restricting everything you have said thus far.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

@OP: you started also drifting into ONLY talking about uber bossing in your last post (because defenses mean nothing in all other content....your words). If THAT is your actual intent then we are having a VERY different conversation, and you are dealing with a much much much much narrower field of vision with far less players involved.

We were talking about huge phys hits vs armor and effectiveness of max res vs suppression against pen, what do you want to talk about? Pen is closely related to - rolling maps, delve, uber bossing, normal bosses, expedition, vaal areas and most likely heaps of other things. It is by far best explained using uber bosses as an example since those have pre-simulated abilities in POB and everybody, who cares about defenses have at least died to them or messed with POB.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Can't be talking about game-wide changes and game-wide mechanics when you are SPECIFICALLY targeting the highest most difficult content that less than a fraction of 1% of players are ever even doing in the first place.

You quite literally can and should. Hard content exposes the fundamental issues and again uber bosses are good to compared to, since you know them and can make multiple setups and try them in semi-consistent environment. Thanks to archnem mods, you can almost find harder rares(in maps) than ubers when it comes to damage mitigation. I agree 100% with the statement, that only 1%~ players ever killed uber bosses, but you cant dispute people running crazy rare maps, delve, simulacrum, wisps and many other situations, where these issues start being similar to the "extreme" uber boss scenarios. If I was talking about void valdo maps or 6k delve, I would be 100% going way off the base game into territory, where there is like 3000 people involved and frankly I can only speak up to 1000~ delve and I never did void maps.


Claiming I dont make my own builds is quite bold of you anyway(via me not playing around with stuff/doing math). I literally play almost exlucively without guides and adjust the core build idea on the fly. You can claim whatever, but I killed most uber bosses on my build and delved to 700 with it(could go deeper to 800-900), which automatically puts me in the 1%. My lv99 character is quite literally the only lightning tendrils of eccentricity CI inquis on poe ninja affliction. Sadly you also delete your characters, so I cant nor want to judge you :)

So to be clear:

This thread is about how the type of charge meant to be purely defensive is weaker offensively than the charges which are purely offensive?

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ARealLifeCaribbeanPirate wrote:

So to be clear:

This thread is about how the type of charge meant to be purely defensive is weaker offensively than the charges which are purely offensive?

Not exactly, only partly.

The initial complaint was about STACKING charges and how getting EXTRA endurance charges feels lackluster to getting extra of the other charges.

But then what came up pretty quickly was...that's because endurance charges have no offense and NEED offense to make them stackable. I disagree.

Then it devolved into the classic...SS/Eva or BUST...routine.