I am going to be very honest; I despise this game's lack of respect for self-determination.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The entire opening post is basically just OP ranting about being unhappy with the game since 2016 yet giving not one concrete example.

this is severly intellectually dishonest characterization of their point or you just don't understand it. Or as someone else was doing its you offering up an ad hom argument in place of an argument.

"short answer" there's always a couple of people who white knight everything and attack negative feedback in the feedback forum on a regular basis, by trying to make the person who's offering feedback the focus instead of arguing the points raised.

Usually because they don't have an argument, or their argument was soundly countered as we can see in this example.

I was gonna say. If some people weren't so obsessed with defending the game, there are plenty of examples you can choose from that backs up OP's point. Literally one of the points they made is that they want to play a build how they want, but the game is so grotesquely convoluted and difficult that coming up with something of your own design is difficult if not outright impossible so you have to rely on builds made by others. This can be frustrating if you're like the OP who wants to come up with a solution on their own rather than depend on others.

I don't know how much clearer the OP has to be for that example to not be missed.

But that's just proving its through the eyes of the beholder. Its entirely up to game knowledge and skill. Whether the OP wants to do things on their own is up to them expectation wise. Something they seem to overinflated cause of ego. They believe they can do no wrong with their build and deserve to get a boss kill, regardless of how they make a character.

This is why, initially, the first responses were trying to see specifically what they were trying to build. Which, surprise surprise, no response, no information publicly available.

This isn't Mario kart 64, this is a extremely complex online game. And if you dont seek outside sources to improve or learn a different way than your own, KNOWING you are struggling, than I dont know what to say. That's a huge character flaw, not just in gaming but in life. Extremely arrogant. I can tell you the game wont change for a person or player like this.

POE is definitely not NEW player friendly, but that's not the case for the OP they have played this longer than me. I have made self-made build that killed UE (some silly Vaal ROA build that would blow ass today). So it's not like this is unobtainable for the lay person.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

If you single out that one quote from the rest of the post then sure, but that'd be disingenuous and reductive, wouldn't you agree? How come you give OP courtesy you deny me?

More context to possibly why they defend the OP and not you.

Same response that I gave about echo, constant complaints and forum quitting posts; this guy does the same thing, these are the players that sit on the forums all day and just dont work with anything. They complain for years, im not kidding YEARS, look at their histories its insane, about GGG this and quitting that. And yet here they are STILL.

The game, not surprisingly, has never changed for any of the demands they have made so idk, they must just be in a state of constant misery? Its a weird thing to pop into every league and see these same names saying the same thing and nothing ever changes their way.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

§1: OP starts by defining "player agency" as the right of a player to determine their choices to their actions, relying on their own skill to overcome their obstacles. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it's a broader term about giving players 'choice' and being able to interact with the game world.

§2: states they played since 2016. Gives an idea about the timespan, not so much about experience / achievements, total time spent but fine.

§3: OP states they have never, not in 7 years of playing PoE, been able to kill the Elder with their self-made builds. They killed Elder this season, but only by playing a build that someone else gave them.

§4: OP complains that this shouldn't be normal. They should have been able to kill Elder with their self-made builds and expressing they feel forced into playing other people's builds to be able to find success.

^ 4 examples of the OP's argument (kinda more like 3 but whatever)

I'm not here saying the OP doesn't need some amount of "git gud" (which I think has some part in it, if they want to beat the end game) nor am I saying anyone should fall off a log and beat end game bosses that would be lame as well. But I am agreeing with the overall sentiment that GGG takes choices or agency away in favor of pure RNG too often and too agressively and usually its in response to something some 14h a day streamer said or did.

The result is a game of extremes: you either meta-game, abuse the latest Abyssal Spire like unintended interaction. or you nolife to brute force the RNG or some combination.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

What irked me and why I concluded that it's basically just a rant post without anything substantive is that there were no examples given of a character they envisioned and which the game didn't allow them to make

Fair enough. FWIW I think the OP either needs to embrace "the journey" and stop giving a shit about "accomplishment" (which descibes my head space with POE perfectly since the endgame was Shaper) or get a little more outcome oriented and start bending towards the meta to get the bosses they want to do down. POE is never going to have an organic feeling progression like say Terraria unless you're Steelmage or something and can farm 200 exarch's at ~18 (or whatever it was) maps per to get the thing. A vanishingly small subset of the playerbase can do that without getting bored and noping out. Its no suprise that the people most able to deal with it are being paid to play the game as a job.

The overarching point is that. Maybe the game shouldn't be balanced around it? Maybe not as much or as agressively? Or maybe they should delete "merge" from SSF and rebalance SSF to be a mode balanced around actually feeling like a good feel balanced game like Terraria or Valheim.

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Chickenwink wrote:

Same response that I gave about echo, constant complaints and forum quitting posts; this guy does the same thing, these are the players that sit on the forums all day and just dont work with anything. They complain for years, im not kidding YEARS, look at their histories its insane, about GGG this and quitting that. And yet here they are STILL.

Wow my profile and posting history is living rent free in someones head.

So I'm reporting your post because you're trying to drag an old thread/argument where your posts needed to be repeatedly deleted or edited by the mods trying to derail the thread with ad hom's. Its against forum TOS to drag old arguments into new threads and its also against the rules to deliberately provoke and insult. Both of which you're doing here.

i ll go off on a slightly different tangent.

i think OP is a weak player. but i can understand the frustration.

OP stated he's been playing since 2016. my guess is that he is similar to me, i RESENT following builds. and back in 2016 things were much different from now.

a 100k dps build COULD work back then. but as the years passed, the devs constantly threw harder challenges towards players to the point that there is a huge build disparity.

if you came in the game 5 years ago, you could make ANY janky ass build somewhat work. a lot of boss mechanics could be circumvented with good awareness/positioning.

now? its a huge gear/build check. you cant afford to be inefficient. you cant afford to do a janky melee witch. you actually can but only if you invest tons of divines into gearing but with a fraction of that investment you could have done so much more with a better build.

i myself tweaked my own build over the years. i m using echoforge viperstrike. totally weak ass build with 1-3 million dps. but i've cleared most of the game except for the feared and uber pinnacles. the gear i use on standard... man those would have cost a bomb and some are unobtainable now.

i have had the luxury of GROWING with the game over the years.

but i would say I AM LUCKY. many of the newer gears/gems/mechanics actually were in my favour. perhaps OP did not have the same luck as i have and the changes could have affected his build in a negative way?

the big issue with poe to me is that the gap between a "new player going blind" vs someone following a build is doing 50-100k dps vs millions to billions.

the most common response that i see that "good players" would give is to git gud/learn the game/pick and follow 1 of the bajillions of working build guides. to an aspect i agree that players need to understand the game better, but i am always disgusted by any game that needs players to follow a build guide.

personally, my enjoyment from playing arpgs is making my own build. i am playing the game. if i follow a build, i feel like the game is playing me.

many may have forgotten how POE actually marketed itself, where it highlighted itself as being a classless game where a witch could use a sword and a beefy maruader could cast spells. i liked the idea of doing janky ass builds, but as the game grew, the need for efficiency pruned away the jankiness bit by bit to where we are here today.

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alhazred70 wrote:

I'm not here saying the OP doesn't need some amount of "git gud" (which I think has some part in it, if they want to beat the end game) nor am I saying anyone should fall off a log and beat end game bosses that would be lame as well. But I am agreeing with the overall sentiment that GGG takes choices or agency away in favor of pure RNG too often and too agressively and usually its in response to something some 14h a day streamer said or did.

The result is a game of extremes: you either meta-game, abuse the latest Abyssal Spire like unintended interaction. or you nolife to brute force the RNG or some combination.

I'm glad we got there! I don't throw "git gud" around lightly because it's abrasive, and that's why I inquired what OP tried to do. Of course I never got a response so I scrounged together the info from their profile.

Endgame Abyss strategy is far, far away from the bar that OP set for their character journey. You can kill Elder on a 4-link and with sub-par gear if you know what you're doing, quite early too.

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alhazred70 wrote:

Fair enough. FWIW I think the OP either needs to embrace "the journey" and stop giving a shit about "accomplishment" (which descibes my head space with POE perfectly since the endgame was Shaper) or get a little more outcome oriented and start bending towards the meta to get the bosses they want to do down. POE is never going to have an organic feeling progression like say Terraria unless you're Steelmage or something and can farm 200 exarch's at ~18 (or whatever it was) maps per to get the thing. A vanishingly small subset of the playerbase can do that without getting bored and noping out. Its no suprise that the people most able to deal with it are being paid to play the game as a job.

The overarching point is that. Maybe the game shouldn't be balanced around it? Maybe not as much or as agressively? Or maybe they should delete "merge" from SSF and rebalance SSF to be a mode balanced around actually feeling like a good feel balanced game like Terraria or Valheim.

This is precisely why I said that OP needs to manage their expectations. I don't deny that PoE is a hardcore game for hardcore nerds. That's why people point to D4 for casual gamers and to PoE for people who want a more customization and richer endgame.

Here's the part where we will disagree: the game is balanced around trading. People like your example of Steelmage farm Exarchs and make those boss items available to the playerbase as a whole. SSF is a self-imposed challenge where you don't have access to that market and it's that way by design. It's also completely besides the point because OP plays Trade

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exsea wrote:

the most common response that i see that "good players" would give is to git gud/learn the game/pick and follow 1 of the bajillions of working build guides. to an aspect i agree that players need to understand the game better, but i am always disgusted by any game that needs players to follow a build guide.

Yes, that is the sensible thing to tell a new player to do. As children learn from their parents and teachers in school, new players don't need to reinvent algebra either. You learn the fundamentals from books and later, when you have sufficient proficiency, you can work on your own theorems.

This is not unique to Path of Exile but something that exists in literally almost every MMO. Heck, there's meta gaming in Baldur's Gate 3 even and that is, for the most part, a single player game.

Point is: it is not bad to learn from the best. This knowledge can then be applied to other builds / ideas you might come up with.

SSF doesn't need to be a challenge mode any more... its literally no longer the challenge mode. Ruthless does that.

I don't think its crazy to suggest that POE should have a mode that is tuned to FEEL GOOD TO PLAY (but still grindy) instead of being tuned around trade metrics and whatever CuteDog or Empy are doing.

I would even go so far as to say that more agency might actually improve player retention at this point. I don't have metrics but it used to be that 1% of players had beat endgame content. I'd bet its worse for Ubers. They are arguably (no one but GGG has numbers) in a space where 60-80% of the playerbase might actually play longer if they weren't noping out from sheer boredom/frustration.

(note thats assuming they're not following a meta, in which case they're shitting on the game in a week or two or something like it)

I'd also say that 2013 POE with 3 acts and Piety as end game boss and 2023 POE are so vastly contrasted in terms of content that I'd guess vast portions of the invested/returning playerbase simply ignore 40-50 maybe 60% of all the things you CAN do in the game.

So then there's precious little reason to not give at least some more agency. IMO the game is currently so overtuned towards RNG and away from agency that its only harming the game.

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alhazred70 wrote:

SSF doesn't need to be a challenge mode any more... its literally no longer the challenge mode. Ruthless does that.

I don't think its crazy to suggest that POE should have a mode that is tuned to FEEL GOOD TO PLAY (but still grindy) instead of being tuned around trade metrics and whatever CuteDog or Empy are doing.

+1

I made a suggestion ages ago when private leagues were brand new that there should be an SSF void server that's balanced to account for the lack of ability to trade. Right now, SSF servers still have to follow the same rules and systems as trade leagues which puts you at a severe handicap since the game is balanced around something you can't do.

We have ruthless now which is meant to be challenging. I think it's time SSF leagues get rebalanced to be more favorable and account for the lack of ability to trade.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

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alhazred70 wrote:

SSF doesn't need to be a challenge mode any more... its literally no longer the challenge mode. Ruthless does that.

I don't think its crazy to suggest that POE should have a mode that is tuned to FEEL GOOD TO PLAY (but still grindy) instead of being tuned around trade metrics and whatever CuteDog or Empy are doing.

+1

I made a suggestion ages ago when private leagues were brand new that there should be an SSF void server that's balanced to account for the lack of ability to trade. Right now, SSF servers still have to follow the same rules and systems as trade leagues which puts you at a severe handicap since the game is balanced around something you can't do.

We have ruthless now which is meant to be challenging. I think it's time SSF leagues get rebalanced to be more favorable and account for the lack of ability to trade.

It's good to see nothing has changed around here. The dream of a wall balanced game still lives on!!

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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Chickenwink wrote:

Short answer, no echo has been on the forums for several years and has made countless "im quitting" posts. Basically just craps on the game nonstop, doesn't actually have much to say but tries to pass off like they do.

I knew something smelled fishy.

Lol, you two make good couple feeding each other's egos :)

I first came to poe at the start of ritual league and played ritual and ultimatum before sticking to standard. Just so happens, both these mechanics were unforgiving to new players.

Also made a single "I'm quitting" post and quit for several months after being fed up with death penalty at levels 95-100. Think what you want about it.

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Yes, that is the sensible thing to tell a new player to do. As children learn from their parents and teachers in school, new players don't need to reinvent algebra either. You learn the fundamentals from books and later, when you have sufficient proficiency, you can work on your own theorems.

This is not unique to Path of Exile but something that exists in literally almost every MMO. Heck, there's meta gaming in Baldur's Gate 3 even and that is, for the most part, a single player game.

Point is: it is not bad to learn from the best. This knowledge can then be applied to other builds / ideas you might come up with.

as mentioned i do agree to a certain point.

but it also doesnt take away from the fact that certain builds can be better than others. the gap is huge.

i would prefer if that gap is reduced. for sure its easy to say new players need to learn. its also easy to say poe is not for everyone.

in my group of friends, i believe i m the only one still active. some have had their fair share of the game. some got tired of the game constantly getting harder. some outright found the game too complex. theres 1001 pitfalls that poe actively pushes players away.

to be honest i actually ragequit the game several times but i m back solely because of the new ascendancies which breath a little new fresh air to the game.