I am going to be very honest; I despise this game's lack of respect for self-determination.

Just look at the droprates from uber bosses. The most difficult encounters in the game, only the 0,0000001 can even do them and they literally drop their good items once every hundred kills. If it wasn't for streamers/no lifers doing a thousand kills per afternoon there wouldn't be any of those items around with those drop rates. Normal players won't even be able to kill them that many times during a league. The lowlifers do their thing and flood the market with those items so they become available to a bigger audience thanks to trade but actually farming that stuff yourself is basically impossible, the droprates aren't even close to realistic for normal people.

This game is made for streamers/no lifers and no one else. Because GGG is obsessed with their idea of making this game "hardcore" and "difficult" they see the playerbase as opponents to beat and design the game with the intention of "beating" the best players. The rest of the playerbase falling off and suffering in the process is just perfect for them because it fit's their intentions.

The points mentioned by alhazred are good examples but there are plenty more, one of my favorites is them butchering harvest (which was great for casuals) because of nolifers abusing TFT to get absurd power out of it. Or watch the latest exilecon where they presented POE2 and count how many times they pointed out how "difficult" it is. Calling it an obsession is honestly putting it mildly at this point. "Can't have players beat our game, how dare they".

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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Echothesis wrote:

I've never downloaded POB and never followed any build guides (any deeper then "hey, try build around that unique + this skill gem"), so playing poe your own way is definitely possible, although you'll always get the short end of the stick with patches because such players do not exist in GGG eyes. They keep balancing endgame around those who arrive at mirror farming stage at day 3-4 of the league, and around party players.

I regret asking this already, but do you even have first hand experience on challenge leagues?

Because when you say that the game is balanced around people farming mirrors on day 3-4 of a new league it sounds very hyperbolic.

It is true that the Path of Exile endgame requires players to min-max their characters. That isn't some grand revelation. You cannot expect to just blast through the endgame without properly planning & reviewing your character and gear. And if you want to do it without, then you gotta manage your expectations.

The game isn't balanced around the people you describe and also not around party players. It's just that those players will succeed in any situation because using the best strategies and playing in organized parties will always be an advantage versus just 'winging it' and playing solo.

Short answer, no echo has been on the forums for several years and has made countless "im quitting" posts. Basically just craps on the game nonstop, doesn't actually have much to say but tries to pass off like they do.

I know a guy, who asked for my advice, tried to copy my build and ended up spending 30 passives wrong, 10 of them totally wasted on wrong pathing, like could just save them picking other route (and those were small stats passives, not something he could use), ended up telling me how he followed my advice to every letter, how good he is after spending XXX h in game, but yet failing white tier maps and blaming the game for his failure.

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Chickenwink wrote:

Short answer, no echo has been on the forums for several years and has made countless "im quitting" posts. Basically just craps on the game nonstop, doesn't actually have much to say but tries to pass off like they do.

I knew something smelled fishy.

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Nomancs wrote:

I know a guy, who asked for my advice, tried to copy my build and ended up spending 30 passives wrong, 10 of them totally wasted on wrong pathing, like could just save them picking other route (and those were small stats passives, not something he could use), ended up telling me how he followed my advice to every letter, how good he is after spending XXX h in game, but yet failing white tier maps and blaming the game for his failure.

Sounds kind of like OP.

The entire opening post is basically just OP ranting about being unhappy with the game since 2016 yet giving not one concrete example.

Yes, Path of Exile is a complex game which you need to know the nuances of to make a build that can tackle the endgame. But that is one of its core strengths and not a weakness. If they're unwilling to take advice it's no wonder their experience is bad. I'd argue they need to manage their expectations when screwing around

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The entire opening post is basically just OP ranting about being unhappy with the game since 2016 yet giving not one concrete example.

this is severly intellectually dishonest characterization of their point or you just don't understand it. Or as someone else was doing its you offering up an ad hom argument in place of an argument.

"short answer" there's always a couple of people who white knight everything and attack negative feedback in the feedback forum on a regular basis, by trying to make the person who's offering feedback the focus instead of arguing the points raised.

Usually because they don't have an argument, or their argument was soundly countered as we can see in this example.

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alhazred70 wrote:

this is severly intellectually dishonest characterization of their point or you just don't understand it. Or as someone else was doing its you offering up an ad hom argument in place of an argument.

"short answer" there's always a couple of people who white knight everything and attack negative feedback in the feedback forum on a regular basis, by trying to make the person who's offering feedback the focus instead of arguing the points raised.

Usually because they don't have an argument, or their argument was soundly countered as we can see in this example.

Oh yeah? Lets break it down then:

§1: OP starts by defining "player agency" as the right of a player to determine their choices to their actions, relying on their own skill to overcome their obstacles. I don't necessarily disagree with this, but it's a broader term about giving players 'choice' and being able to interact with the game world.

§2: states they played since 2016. Gives an idea about the timespan, not so much about experience / achievements, total time spent but fine.

§3: OP states they have never, not in 7 years of playing PoE, been able to kill the Elder with their self-made builds. They killed Elder this season, but only by playing a build that someone else gave them.

§4: OP complains that this shouldn't be normal. They should have been able to kill Elder with their self-made builds and expressing they feel forced into playing other people's builds to be able to find success.

The only substantive feedback is that they have tried to make their own builds and failed. We are not given examples of any such build, and their highest level character in Standard is level 83. The achievement "Diminishing Returns" which is awarded for reaching level 90 on any non-hardcore character has not been completed, so we can assume that level 83 is as far as they have ever gotten.

So when I said that OP needs to manage their expectations when 'screwing around' (crude choice of words, but bear with me here) that is exactly what it is though. The Elder is part of the endgame, which is unlocked through running T14+ maps. You are expected to have a well-rounded character by that point as the game gets incrementally more difficult. The regular Elder fight isn't even anything fancy that requires you to remember mechanics like the Maven for example.

What irked me and why I concluded that it's basically just a rant post without anything substantive is that there were no examples given of a character they envisioned and which the game didn't allow them to make, because I'm sure we'd be able to piece it together. Or if it is their belief that the fight is too difficult. We cannot tell what exactly the complaint is, because they don't clearly outline it.

I know I'm running into the risk of being called an elitist after already being labeled a white knight, but Elder seriously is a low bar to clear.

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alhazred70 wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The entire opening post is basically just OP ranting about being unhappy with the game since 2016 yet giving not one concrete example.

this is severly intellectually dishonest characterization of their point or you just don't understand it. Or as someone else was doing its you offering up an ad hom argument in place of an argument.

"short answer" there's always a couple of people who white knight everything and attack negative feedback in the feedback forum on a regular basis, by trying to make the person who's offering feedback the focus instead of arguing the points raised.

Usually because they don't have an argument, or their argument was soundly countered as we can see in this example.

I was gonna say. If some people weren't so obsessed with defending the game, there are plenty of examples you can choose from that backs up OP's point. Literally one of the points they made is that they want to play a build how they want, but the game is so grotesquely convoluted and difficult that coming up with something of your own design is difficult if not outright impossible so you have to rely on builds made by others. This can be frustrating if you're like the OP who wants to come up with a solution on their own rather than depend on others.

I don't know how much clearer the OP has to be for that example to not be missed.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

I was gonna say. If some people weren't so obsessed with defending the game, there are plenty of examples you can choose from that backs up OP's point. Literally one of the points they made is that they want to play a build how they want, but the game is so grotesquely convoluted and difficult that coming up with something of your own design is difficult if not outright impossible so you have to rely on builds made by others. This can be frustrating if you're like the OP who wants to come up with a solution on their own rather than depend on others.

I don't know how much clearer the OP has to be for that example to not be missed.

With all due respect: I should be allowed to discern between genuine things that can be improved and PEBCAK without being called a white knight only because you disagree with my point of view. This is an open discussion forum and everyone can chime in and share their perspective

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ArtCrusade wrote:

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Pizzarugi wrote:

I was gonna say. If some people weren't so obsessed with defending the game, there are plenty of examples you can choose from that backs up OP's point. Literally one of the points they made is that they want to play a build how they want, but the game is so grotesquely convoluted and difficult that coming up with something of your own design is difficult if not outright impossible so you have to rely on builds made by others. This can be frustrating if you're like the OP who wants to come up with a solution on their own rather than depend on others.

I don't know how much clearer the OP has to be for that example to not be missed.

With all due respect: I should be allowed to discern between genuine things that can be improved and PEBCAK without being called a white knight only because you disagree with my point of view. This is an open discussion forum and everyone can chime in and share their perspective

You literally just said the OP was ranting about nothing as they gave no examples as to what they're unhappy about. You would have to be so blindly in support of the game that you completely ignored a significant chunk of the OP's post where they explained what upsets them.

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Pizzarugi wrote:

You literally just said the OP was ranting about nothing as they gave no examples as to what they're unhappy about. You would have to be so blindly in support of the game that you completely ignored a significant chunk of the OP's post where they explained what upsets them.

If you single out that one quote from the rest of the post then sure, but that'd be disingenuous and reductive, wouldn't you agree? How come you give OP courtesy you deny me?