Please reconsider gender-locked classes for PoE2

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Yrto wrote:

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Nonbinary people don't exist to be the butt of your "jokes".

I never said they did? And it's not a joke I'm being deadly serious. When will it end? Why don't we include aliens also. It's completely arbitrary the line you're drawing in the sand.

"Deadly serious" come off it man, this is puerile nonsense. You're here comparing NB folks to aliens as if that's remotely appropriate.

I'm not drawing a line in the sand. I'm supporting a request for a feature in a videogame.

"Where does it end" is such a weird question. Making the game better doesn't have an end - surely someone who "knows about live service games" should know that. You make one improvement and then you make another one, and after that you make another one. Until you turn off the game servers however many years down the line, you keep making changes.

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Yrto wrote:

What are you even talking about? I'm saying their genders added to their characters' uniqueness. Taking that away inherently dilutes the character's personality. Instead of Amazon the dexterous female warrior you are making indescript dex character. It's boring.

Your male Templar and female Ranger would still exist exactly as they do today. Nobody is suggesting taking anything away.

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Yrto wrote:

POE1 has been looked after by a skeleton crew. Like 8 members I think Chris Wilson said. So they are definitely struggling with the workload. I guarantee the devs are being overworked which is INCREDIBLY common in the gaming industry. Especially making a game of this quality.

I'm not asking anyone to be overworked so I'm not sure why you're telling me this. The suggestion is not "make this happen at all costs, employee health be damned".

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Yrto wrote:

And you are again reading what you want and missing my point. These are resources that could be allocated to things for EVERYONE to enjoy.

I'm not missing your point, I'm just not agreeing with it. There is no requirement that people only suggest features that everyone cares about, that would be absurd.

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Yrto wrote:

You requesting this is purely out of self interest and it's sickening honestly.

What an utterly bizarre comment. Do you think people normally suggest features they're not personally interested in? If people suggesting a game studio add a feature they'd like is "sickening" you are living a hell of a charmed life.

Gus you miss the point every single time.

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The advocacy against removing gender-lock by certain users is such that I am about to switch camps because I don't want any associations with this petty tomfoolery.

Telling people to go away is not a good argument and convinces no one

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The advocacy against removing gender-lock by certain users is such that I am about to switch camps because I don't want any associations with this petty tomfoolery.

Telling people to go away is not a good argument and convinces no one

I think the current climate makes people overly touchy about this stuff. Its ok to talk about and ask for this stuff but the problem for a lot of people (including me) is when you start to say that devs are required to do X, Y, or Z.

Devs should do things because they want to do it, not because they feel forced to do it by some particular crowd. Its not there yet but I dont think its far fetched to say its far away.

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gladiatorpie wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

The advocacy against removing gender-lock by certain users is such that I am about to switch camps because I don't want any associations with this petty tomfoolery.

Telling people to go away is not a good argument and convinces no one

I think the current climate makes people overly touchy about this stuff. Its ok to talk about and ask for this stuff but the problem for a lot of people (including me) is when you start to say that devs are required to do X, Y, or Z.

Devs should do things because they want to do it, not because they feel forced to do it by some particular crowd. Its not there yet but I dont think its far fetched to say its far away.

I mean if you check back one page I said literally the same thing in response to someone else. It is okay to want these things and it is okay to not want these things. What's not okay is using the discussion as an opportunity to yell at the other side or bring in politics.

That last part is probably the most ridiculous about the entire affair. I get the some people struggle to look at such topics with a sober mind, but it's a freaking video game for christ's sake and not someone's run for presidency

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Telling people to go away is not a good argument and convinces no one

Obviously. Both quickly entered ad hominem territory and that never helps anyone's argument.

However, as i said before, changing things without careful thought is the hall mark of bad decisions. And "trust me bro" from ChatGPT is hardly worthy of serious consideration or authority basis to make a serious change in which would require several aspects to be reworked.

I alredy outlined pretty much the best compromise as an option that doesn't involve butchering the lore to make a dozen people happy, but everyone just loves to focus on drama, i guess.

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Z3RoNightMare wrote:

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ArtCrusade wrote:

Telling people to go away is not a good argument and convinces no one

Obviously. Both quickly entered ad hominem territory and that never helps anyone's argument.

However, as i said before, changing things without careful thought is the hall mark of bad decisions. And "trust me bro" from ChatGPT is hardly worthy of serious consideration or authority basis to make a serious change in which would require several aspects to be reworked.

I alredy outlined pretty much the best compromise as an option that doesn't involve butchering the lore to make a dozen people happy, but everyone just loves to focus on drama, i guess.

Eh, that's just human nature. A topic as divisive as this one invites drama. I don't remember a single thread about this topic that didn't end like this...

Given that we have Maroider MTX it seems they have the capacity to change the model or at least overlay another model over your actual model. It's a good compromise

We absolutely should have genders for each class, though at this point I would expect to see them phased in sometime after release.

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Yrto wrote:

You are clueless about the amount of work that would go into making a whole new character model for each of the 12!!! 12 classes that exist in POE2. It would be a monumental task, not just a simple MTX as you put it. It would require new character models, new voice lines, new animations. Each new MTX they put out would require twice the amount of work as before having to make female and male versions.

It's not a case of "give me the choice". You are literally doubling the workload by asking for this.

Professional 3D artists can churn these out pretty fast.

You're also assuming that the gendered characters won't have the same physical build per class. Animations are easy to modify, especially for only slightly different skeletal rigs.

Artists aren't making whole armor sets from scratch for each body, just each class. They make one, then fit and weight it to each body / skeleton that can use it. Sometimes the body piece will require extra editing depending on how form-fitting it is, but otherwise it's just simple resizing.

While it is more work, it isn't by any means doubling the amount of work.

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I would like the option if its possible but if it can't be done it can't be done. And I would rather not force developers to conform to my whims alone.

I am more concerned about the fact that Scion won't be in POE2 which for me is a big no, no. The whole reason why I love the Scion is the ability to experiment with builds that wouldn't be possible or efficient with other classes and their reasoning behind the Scion not being there is that she has no strong identity or class fantasy.

And no duhh jack of all trades master of none is not made with the idea of having a strong identity its made with the idea of inventing your own identity in game. If I wanna be a crossbow character that occasionally drops a comet on enemies then shapeshifts into a wolf to nom some badguy then I should be able to do that without it being weird or weak.

In the real world with real constraints asking for these changes inherently takes resources and time that could be devoted to something else that has a bigger impact for a larger pool of people. Hence why this narrative is inherently disruptive to the development of the game. And why a lot of players have an issue with a small number of vocal players demanding these things.

And the way it comes across is akin to a moral threat. Well you don't have to do this thing but if you don't do it you're in the wrong and you'll look really bad. It's manipulative at best.

Honestly the answer for this is to just not play any male characters if it doesn't align with your gender identity and it bothers you that much.

I refuse to debate someone that goes after small logical inconsistencies in what I'm saying rather than responding to the points I'm making. You can call it what you want but don't throw insults from your moral highground.

It's about making a great game. Not about personal feelings. Doing what's right for the game. Regardless of what anyone on this forum says the second that isn't true, gamers will turn their backs. The biggest games studio in the world Blizzard Activision failed making an enjoyable inclusive ARPG despite having atleast 10x the resources GGG has, what makes anyone think GGG is capable of doing it is beyond me. They focused on inclusivity rather than making a great game and it's crashed the company into a dumpster fire. You can't have everything and you need to prioritise and focus on what's important. And asking for gender options so you can feel immersed in a game where you are fully armoured up and can't see your character 90% of the times in combat shouldn't be the priority. Also what's wrong with playing as a dude?