Map Management Resource

why is this not stickied?

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Zakaluka wrote:

I suppose I don't have a simple wrapped up question. If I had to come up with one, it'd go like this: what are your basic reasons for the map affixes you've chosen to favor, and have you done any counting to investigate those choices?

It drives me nuts every time I see a streamer roll off a great map saying things like: ugh, need maze. Other combinations are at least almost as good, and rolling off a maze is pretty expensive. Really there should be a shortlist of combos you're willing to accept.

I realize that knowing for certain would require a tremendous data collection. Actually the kind of data you need to figure it out makes the project impossible without a core group of 10 or so detail oriented and dedicated contributors. The notion of a community log project doesn't work here.

You raise very good questions that will help contribute to the overall quality of the resource!

My (and Syrtis') reasoning for map affixes are strictly (as for now) observational in nature. While, admittedly we do not have sufficient data to provide conclusive empirical evidence as to why certain affixes are good, I do indeed observe maps as I do them. From there, I make note on my progression to some degree, both in terms of drop yield and especially pack interactions (including magic and rares).

This problem is exacerbated as one moves up by the limited resources and pool of maps available to us. At this juncture, I would honestly admit that I would absolutely love to learn more about affix interactions because I do not know enough.


You've given me a lot to think about, particularly with the direction I want this resource to head in. Thank you for this feedback!

P.S: I've learnt a good few things from this which I'll discuss with Syrtis. He has the pool and we should have the time come summer to do our analysis.

I think this also highlights a key flaw in the resource: a very unclear definition of progression. It had occurred to me that when considering progression, I did not take into account what angle I was approaching this from. Was it a strictly map pool based progression? Am I considering experience and levelling as part of this? What about currency and drops which contribute towards other aspects of map management?

In this sense, it distorts the actual weightage given to different affixes due to their relative value towards the person running the map. My best advice to those reading for now is to use your best judgement as to what affixes are beneficial for YOU.

As this resource is constantly evolving and improving, I hope to address these in the near future as my time allows me.

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Lyralei wrote:

I think this also highlights a key flaw in the resource: a very unclear definition of progression. It had occurred to me that when considering progression, I did not take into account what angle I was approaching this from. Was it a strictly map pool based progression? Am I considering experience and levelling as part of this? What about currency and drops which contribute towards other aspects of map management?

I would suggest that when you're doing expensive/rare maps (read: scarce high level maps), and you're past the exp penalty wall for the 70-ish range of maps, quite literally the only thing you care about it getting a high level map on average for every high level map you spend. Every other concern is secondary, because accomplishing that will earn more xp and useful items than anything else.

Basically, you use low level maps as currency support, until you have enough wealth to roll awesome mods on the next one of those 10 75 maps you're stashing. You need those 10 level 75 maps to net another 10 75 maps. Or, 4 level 74/4 level 75/2 level 76. You get my point.

Since xp is so heavily influenced by map level, the xp benefit a particular map mod brings to the table should be given almost zero consideration. Same with the wealth you generate from those maps. All you care about is keeping your status quo or moving forward in level progression. At that level you'll even spend many times more currency per map, than you earn inside the map. That's where your 66-68 maps come back into play - use them to generate fusings. Sell fusings to other players for chaos orbs.

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Zakaluka wrote:

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Lyralei wrote:

I think this also highlights a key flaw in the resource: a very unclear definition of progression. It had occurred to me that when considering progression, I did not take into account what angle I was approaching this from. Was it a strictly map pool based progression? Am I considering experience and levelling as part of this? What about currency and drops which contribute towards other aspects of map management?

I would suggest that when you're doing expensive/rare maps (read: scarce high level maps), and you're past the exp penalty wall for the 70-ish range of maps, quite literally the only thing you care about it getting a high level map on average for every high level map you spend. Every other concern is secondary, because accomplishing that will earn more xp and useful items than anything else.

Basically, you use low level maps as currency support, until you have enough wealth to roll awesome mods on the next one of those 10 75 maps you're stashing. You need those 10 level 75 maps to net another 10 75 maps. Or, 4 level 74/4 level 75/2 level 76. You get my point.

Since xp is so heavily influenced by map level, the xp benefit of map mods should be given almost zero consideration. All you care about is keeping your status quo or moving forward in level progression.

This is actually exactly what we practice at the moment. I have reached the point (level 89) where levels are just a bonus afterthought to me. My only concerns lie in not dropping down in tiers and earning currency to run these maps.

I'll definitely do a deeper analysis and writeup on this after discussing with Syrtis. Now I'm not sure if 200,000 characters are enough..

I somehow can't agree with your classification of the Exposure mod. Before the patch, sure - it hurt like hell and had mediocre rewards - but now? 30% is nothing to scoff at, and compared to, say, the Temporal Chains mod, is a lot less likely to cause serious issues in many builds (in many cases in maps, I find myself in battles of attrition - i.e. "Can I kill this group of mobs faster than they can kill me?" - does this mean I'm doing it wrong?). Also, undead is miles worse than skeletal - Skeletal turns a map into a slightly less dangerous docks run; undead turns it into a lovely game of "kite the necro".

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Budget_player_cadet wrote:

I somehow can't agree with your classification of the Exposure mod. Before the patch, sure - it hurt like hell and had mediocre rewards - but now? 30% is nothing to scoff at, and compared to, say, the Temporal Chains mod, is a lot less likely to cause serious issues in many builds (in many cases in maps, I find myself in battles of attrition - i.e. "Can I kill this group of mobs faster than they can kill me?" - does this mean I'm doing it wrong?). Also, undead is miles worse than skeletal - Skeletal turns a map into a slightly less dangerous docks run; undead turns it into a lovely game of "kite the necro".

The rating on Exposure has not been amended as I cannot come to an agreement with Syrtis as to how to classify it. As an experienced player, would I run this suffix? Absolutely, every single time (perhaps skipping Piety on certain occasions depending.). The problem is I cannot, in good judgement, move it up just yet because inexperienced players will get the wrong notion. This is not an easy affix to run and I don't want to make it seem like it is.

Syrtis insists on giving it a 4*, I would opt for lower because I take into consideration NEW players. Experienced players will be able to make the call as to whether they can run the affix or not.

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Lyralei wrote:

The rating on Exposure has not been amended as I cannot come to an agreement with Syrtis as to how to classify it. As an experienced player, would I run this suffix? Absolutely, every single time (perhaps skipping Piety on certain occasions depending.). The problem is I cannot, in good judgement, move it up just yet because inexperienced players will get the wrong notion. This is not an easy affix to run and I don't want to make it seem like it is.

I honestly don't get how a 20% ele damage increase could warrant "worst affix in the game" status, especially with such a high reward, but okay.

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Syrtis insists on giving it a 4*, I would opt for lower because I take into consideration NEW players. Experienced players will be able to make the call as to whether they can run the affix or not.

I guess there are a few things I hate about the affix... I despise necros, and running into one of the "cannot die" aura ones is a colossal pain. Added bonus: miss one necro on open maps, and you get to kill everything on the map twice.

It interacts with elemental damage increasing affixes, monster properties and shotgun capabilities of certain monsters making you more susceptible to status effects, stuns (if no EoC/US) and other things like the recently added Chaining prefix. In the same way people value Purity and Elemental Adaptation, the Exposure weakness has just as much weightage in my calculations.

It may seem like a small amount, but when Exposure is compounded along with other affixes like Fleet, Deadly and Overlord's, it becomes something you don't want to do. Shrine Piety can turn from a 4,000 damage monstrosity into..yeah. Also, if you've encountered one of those Burning Miscreations, you'll know how bad they are with less than max resists. At 60% Fire Resistance, my life (5500 at that time) with 250 regen dropped from full to 30% in less than 5 seconds on a 66 Dried Lake.

Exposure doesn't just add 20% elemental damage. It usually doubles it, or worse.

I'm sitting at 80% resist all. I go into an exposure map. Now I have 60%. Ugh. I'm switching on grace and mashing my enfeeble button, still could die at any moment by just not reading monster affixes quickly enough.

If exposure maxed at 10% it'd still be situationally deadly. Like suckerpunch deadly - you're dead before you even had a chance to evaluate the situation. Run into one crit flicker champ pack. Yeesh.