Less duration interaction with Holy relic

I asked this question because I think that PoB is wrong in this case. Checking in PoB doesn't help at all, neither does testing against non-duration skills(since its obvious that L.Duration doesn't affect them).

This is a special case. The Holy Relic minion doesn't have a Duration tag, but the spell that is triggered by it clearly has a Duration component, but the spell also doesn't have the Duration tag, which under other more common circumstances would mean that Less Duration wouldn't show up as a linked support, but the game indicates that its a viable link. Increased duration also shows up.

So its safe to assume that Holy Relic has a hidden duration tag that's not coded into PoB because its a niche skill and attaching duration gems to it is also a foreign idea. One that is easily missed.

The duration is for the regen buff only. But it's ok. Not useful to keep going in circles on this. If you want to waste a gem socket, then by all means, feel free.

Just like how when you link Less Duration to Purifying Flame the duration is for the consecrated ground only. /s

No. Not only is the Purifying Flame gem duration tagged, but the skill itself is also duration typed internally.

Summon Holy Relic isn't duration tagged. The skill that a Holy Relic uses, RelicTriggeredNova, also isn't a duration skill internally. The 4 second duration in the gem data is the only way the life regen is even represented (as it's its own separate thing, which is otherwise hidden from the client). The nova itself does not have a duration.

But it seems you just want someone to tell you it works the way you think it does. Okay. It works the way you think it does. It absolutely, 100% works.

The data mined from the client that's available on poedb is wrong. PoB which uses that data is wrong. My conclusions that they were right after having previously experimented with this very thing? Also wrong.

I can confirm with full confidence that you are right. So, so right. /s

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Mark_GGG wrote:

The skill "Summon Holy Relic" is not a duration skill, because no part of that skill has a duration (it also doesn't deal any damage). What that skill does is summon a minion.

However, that minion has a triggered Nova skill which applies life regen to allies for a duration.

Supports in general can apply either to skills they can affect, or to skills that create minions which have skills/properties they could effect.

Because the Holy Relic minion has this duration skill, Less Duration Support can support Summon Holy Relic, and the modifiers of the support will be applied to the relic minion it summons. No other support is necessary to allow the support to apply to to Summon Holy Relic, and when it is applying, both it's duration and damage modifiers are applied to minions created by that skill.

Are you 100% sure the damage of Less Duration is applying correctly to the nova if it's actually supposed to?

Because I gotta say, I tested this out quite a bit about 2ish years ago, and it sure didn't seem to. There appeared to be a rather noticeable increase in DPS in-game when it was linked with both Arcane Surge (via a Staff support, in my case) and Less Duration. Especially when running Geofri's and having 2 Relics as primary DPS.

Path of Building reflects the same as well, though it could certainly be not factoring it properly. The tags and info of the skill the Relic uses (at least what we're able to see through community data mining) also don't give any indication that the damage portion of Less Duration has anything to latch onto. That definitely appeared to be the case when put into practice in-game.

I'll gladly eat crow and stand corrected if it does work this way or is at least supposed to. I'm just kind of wondering if it's actually working the way you intend it to.

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aggromagnet wrote:

Are you 100% sure the damage of Less Duration is applying correctly to the nova if it's actually supposed to?

Because I gotta say, I tested this out quite a bit about 2ish years ago, and it sure didn't seem to. There appeared to be a rather noticeable increase in DPS in-game when it was linked with both Arcane Surge (via a Staff support, in my case) and Less Duration. Especially when running Geofri's and having 2 Relics as primary DPS.

Path of Building reflects the same as well, though it could certainly be not factoring it properly. The tags and info of the skill the Relic uses (at least what we're able to see through community data mining) also don't give any indication that the damage portion of Less Duration has anything to latch onto. That definitely appeared to be the case when put into practice in-game.

I'll gladly eat crow and stand corrected if it does work this way or is at least supposed to. I'm just kind of wondering if it's actually working the way you intend it to.

Don't always trust PoB. They can get things wrong, be inaccurate or miss certain interactions

I'd suggest testing it in today's PoE as your recollection from 2 years ago doesn't sound too reliable

I don't just trust PoB. That's why I look at the additional gem data on poedb and test things in-game as well. There was nothing via any of those 3 avenues that indicated it was (or should be) benefiting from the damage on Less Duration.

PoB does say no outright, but as mentioned already it could be wrong. poedb data strongly indicates no too, though. And while it doesn't have "everything" about everything, it's rarely actually wrong in terms of what it does have (since it's mined from the client). In-game damage also strongly pointed towards no (though yes, it has been some time since I tested. I was pretty thorough though).

The Summon Holy Relic gem isn't tagged or typed for Duration. The HolyLivingRelic "monster" isn't tagged for Duration. The RelicTriggeredNova skill used by the Relic isn't tagged for Duration. They weren't back when I went through the hassle of testing and still aren't now.

The regen buff duration is indeed listed in the skill effects, but said buff is otherwise unaccounted for in the gem data. One of my assumptions about this the whole time has been that the buff is its own separate effect that gets applied by the nova, and thus it likely has its own tags that we cannot see--probably including Duration. And thus the buff is what Less Duration is able to hook into, rather than the nova itself which has no duration.

If RelicTriggeredNova is somehow considered a duration skill but isn't tagged for it, that's...unusual.

Referring back to OP's reference to Purifying Flame--both the skill gem and the internal skill data are tagged for Duration as they should be. On a more comparable level though, Chaos Golem's SandstormChaosElementalSummoned (the chaos DoT aura) is also tagged as a Duration skill as expected. Less Duration should shorten the duration and modify the damage, and even PoB does indicate that is the case. That's how things ordinarily work.

Relic simply does not have this anywhere, at least not in a way that is visible.

Minions and their skills definitely can be a bit weird mechanically at times though, so...maybe it's okay and Relic will work this way despite lacking what any other skill would normally have present in its data.

It should be fine to take Mark's statement that it works at face value. He is the Skills Guy, after all, and should know the ins and outs better than anyone. It'd also be great if he could still spare a moment to use whatever tools he has at his disposal to confirm that it actually does work.

Just as community tools and info (and player testing lol) can have bugs and/or shortcomings, so too can skills and their various interactions. It's not exactly uncommon.

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Mark_GGG wrote:

Summon Holy Relic has Duration listed as a "minion type" - it's in the secondary list of skill types describing what minions created by that skill can do, as opposed to what the skill itself does.

It doesn't the have Duration type on poedb.

"Triggerable, Mineable, Minion, MinionsCanExplode, Multicastable, Spell, Totemable, Trappable, CreatesMinion, Cooldown" is what's listed for Summon Holy Relic.

Chaos Golem is also untyped for Duration there, although it's still supportable to at least some extent. "Triggerable, Chaos, Mineable, Minion, MinionsCanExplode, Multicastable, Spell, Totemable, Trappable, Golem, CreatesMinion, Cooldown" is what it has going on.

Temporary minions, on the other hand, are definitely Typed for Duration there.

"Attack, Minion, Duration, MinionsCanExplode, MeleeSingleTarget, Multistrikeable, Melee, CreatesMinion" is what's listed for Dominating Blow, for example.

The only mention of duration anywhere for any portion of Holy Relic on poedb, from the Gem, to the "monster", to the nova skill it uses, is the duration of the regen buff in its RelicTriggeredNova skill data.

So, is there a discrepancy between what is available from the client data via mining and what you have available to you on your end? Something sure doesn't seem to be adding up properly here.