Can an auction house be implented

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Cyzax wrote:

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feike wrote:

That manifesto is ancient and in build on top of a premisse that is plain retard: controling a mechanic by making it obnoxious

GGG has repeatedly in their Q&A's said it is still current.

Nothing has changed over the years since the manifesto was written that enables PoE to have an easy auction house. The game structure simply doesn't support it.

The two major issues are:

1. There is WAY too much loot dropped for it to work. If easy trade was put in, every bot would start identifying all rares, and they'd be on the AH. As a result we'd have the same situation as in D3 before they canned their AH, that nobody would ever find anything 'good' and they could buy much better stuff cheaply on the AH. This is a deadly sin in a loot-based MMO, as Blizzard realised.

2. There are trading and non-trading players in the game playing in the same game balance. Difficult trading makes that just about possible without too hard balance problems. Implement easy trading, and GGG would have to raise game difficulty (as everyone could buy super items for nothing), which in return would make it impossible for non-trading players to play. Non-trading players are the majority!

Yes... Other games have implemented easy trading. That means exactly nothing. The point is that PoE loot-wise is more similar to D3 before their (easy) AH was nixed than any other game, and face exactly the same problems.
The possible options are either a difficult trading system, or no trading system. An easy trading system will not work.

^since i rolled the thread over here's the last post.

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Anyone giving GGG crap for adding grind to their game is a comedian.

AH CAN work, but what would need to change to make it work? A lot but not so much we wouldn't recognize poe anymore either.

AH cant make all the other tabs worthless either, Needs to be for high value items or over-night or sales while you are OUT traveling.. whatever the reason.

Even trade CHAT needs to retain some level of value among all the other options.

nice clean edges on that pyramid make engineer happy.

+1, obviously.

Meanwhile I dont get a clear answer wether I am allowed to use the TFT trading tool without getting banned. Streamers use it and meanwhile I am sitting on 4 div worth of stash tabs I cant sell because support wont tell me I am allowed to use TFT tools.

This is absurd. I wont be joining next season if it continues to be this way.

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TheDoctorMattSmith wrote:

Meanwhile I dont get a clear answer wether I am allowed to use the TFT trading tool without getting banned. Streamers use it and meanwhile I am sitting on 4 div worth of stash tabs I cant sell because support wont tell me I am allowed to use TFT tools.

This is absurd. I wont be joining next season if it continues to be this way.

Depends what this TFT trading tool does unless you mean the discord?

if they have an application now im gonna laugh.

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Cyzax wrote:

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feike wrote:

That manifesto is ancient and in build on top of a premisse that is plain retard: controling a mechanic by making it obnoxious

GGG has repeatedly in their Q&A's said it is still current.

Nothing has changed over the years since the manifesto was written that enables PoE to have an easy auction house. The game structure simply doesn't support it.

The two major issues are:

1. There is WAY too much loot dropped for it to work. If easy trade was put in, every bot would start identifying all rares, and they'd be on the AH. As a result we'd have the same situation as in D3 before they canned their AH, that nobody would ever find anything 'good' and they could buy much better stuff cheaply on the AH. This is a deadly sin in a loot-based MMO, as Blizzard realised.

2. There are trading and non-trading players in the game playing in the same game balance. Difficult trading makes that just about possible without too hard balance problems. Implement easy trading, and GGG would have to raise game difficulty (as everyone could buy super items for nothing), which in return would make it impossible for non-trading players to play. Non-trading players are the majority!

Yes... Other games have implemented easy trading. That means exactly nothing. The point is that PoE loot-wise is more similar to D3 before their (easy) AH was nixed than any other game, and face exactly the same problems.
The possible options are either a difficult trading system, or no trading system. An easy trading system will not work.

1-The small little problem is that if thats the solution, its clearly not working. Bots id'in rares in masse? Why you must play SSF only if you think it dont already happens. 90% of the trade site is sub-par yellows, the stuff people are willing to pay divines for are things that dont just drop, double-influence and the like are not something you find on the ground no matter how much you play, what, you think bot users dont already have monopoly over perfect drop-generated stuff?

2-They ALREADY balance factoring trade, its ALREADY perfectly possible to power gear your character and sweep tro the game, and maps are ALREADY set considering people will exchange alts and chaos for gear. Easy trade would maybe make story even easier with easy acess to 1c uniqs(wich if you want to have an easy time, even top tier gear dont make is as easy as if you simply use the option that currently exists to simply join a party in a public game) and maps woudnt change a damn because do you seriously think most people dont rely on trade to have resists and life affixes on most of the gear right after you kill kitava? Not many do it with the craft table or alt spamming, i can tell you that

PoE have VERY little in common with vanilla D3. Here we dont have just trade to get gear, much of the good stuff people for good divines for comes from the craft table, witch simply didnt existed on D3, also and more importantly, no RMAH to monopolize itens behind either egregious amounts of in-game currency or real cash. On D3, it made no sense to ask for gold for anything nice, if it was good it would go to the RMAH, wich made sure that the itens that did poped on the gold Ah had prices on the stratosphere

And OFC, theres the issue that balancing something on a freaking VIDEOGAME by making the GAME obnoxious to play is retard design

I will agree that comparing PoE to something like World of Warcraft with their auction house isn't a valid comparison because the items used for character power upgrades at max level are either account bound or character bound. There are, however, examples of games that are loot driven, have an auction house system, and are just fine. First off the console version of PoE is like this because they have the trade market which functions nearly identically to any normal auction house mechanic, but another perfect example is Mabinogi.

I would wager most people here have never played it, its not super popular, but it is a loot driven game where the items used to upgrade character power once leveling up is no longer very relevant to you are all tradable items. If you want a fancy new Destructive Robe to give you those extra piercing points to skyrocket your dps you can either craft it yourself or go to the auction house to get it. So how does Mabinogi manage to be a loot based game with an auction house without destroying the process of gear upgrades? Simple, they do two things.

Firstly, there is a percentage tax on all items sold on the auction house. If you sell an item for 100k gold the buyer pays 100k and you get 90k. The other 10k is taken as a trade tax so that using the auction house for easier item acquisition has a cost, a tax which you do not have to pay if you trade manually. As a result some players are willing to put forth the extra effort to use the manual trade system that existed before they added the auction house to sell exceptionally expensive items while other players don't feel the time investment is worth it, so they post that 100,000,000 gold item on the auction house and just take the 10mil hit so they can make their 90,000,000 gold profit without having to waste their valuable game time with manual trade.

Second, they cap the number of items you can list on the auction house at one time and have a timer on how long the listing stays up. If you want to sell 5000 items worth close to nothing you cannot do so on the auction house, you must use manual trade for that. This keeps junk items largely out of the market, something the system we have in PoE claims to do but fails miserably at. This also prevents mass listings from bots controlling the market because bots have to bend to the will of the auction house listing limits but still allows for players to easily sell the 10mil item they just got from that raid boss but wont ever use themselves so they can afford to buy a different expensive item that they WILL use themselves and all the time and effort they just put into that raid boss isn't wasted.

Now I'm not saying Mabinogi is a prefect game, it has its problems, a LOT of them, but those problems have nothing to do with their decision to add an auction house to the game. That games problems stem from the inherent nature of its character progression and lack of proper game balance. Mabinogi is a perfect example that proves that a loot based game that doesn't use account binding on valuable items CAN have an auction house without trivializing item acquisition as long as it is implemented with proper restrictions.

On a different but equally important note, D3 is not a valid comparison to PoE either because Blizzard shot themselves in the foot in one BIG way. They allowed items on the auction house to be purchased with real money (MTX currency). This enabled whales to buy up all instances of a given item so they can control the price of that item. Then when they realized how stupid of an idea that was they went overboard on fixing it and rather then just turning off cash for auction house items they removed the auction house from the game altogether and rebalanced loot for what is essentially SSF. While being able to trade in-game items for MTX currency has been done well in other games (Warframe for instance) to amazing ends, thus allowing free players to have access to MTX purchases without buying them while allowing people willing to pay the ability to pay to skip content they don't like without being deprived of its rewards, tradable MTX currency is where you legitimately DO get into a system that requires trading to be difficult in order to stop price fixing. Warframe doesn't have an auction house either, its trade chat or nothing, but that games meta isn't centered around trading like it is with PoE so it doesn't need to have one. Warframe also doesn't force you to go to a website to engage in trading like PoE does either though. There are also a large quantity of items in Warframe which are account bound and thus cannot be purchased in that manner, (and most of these items are the items that sit at the top of the meta like the War being the best melee weapon and also being unpurchasable for MTX currency in any way at all) something which would be a very bad decision for an ARPG that has a trade based meta. PoE, however, lacks the ability to trade MTX currency at all so what happened with D3 wont happen here unless they also let you sell your MTX currency and unlike Warframe, you wont get anywhere in PoE if you don't trade, an unfortunate truth that Chris called out himself in that manifesto about why trading sucks when he admitted that players who don't trade never get past mid tier maps.

What happened with D3 will NOT happen with PoE because PoE isn't D3 and GGG isn't Blizzard. There are solutions that will make trade actually good that don't have to involve making it as annoying as possible to deter people from using it, or worse, to deter people from playing the game altogether. The current trade system causes more problems then it solves and there are better solutions that would fix the problems that the current non-solution causes that will also solve the problems that the current system boasts to solve but doesn't actually solve.

This is something the game NEEDS to have, that or drop rates and item power need to be rebalanced for SSF play and the trade website needs to be rolled back so that SSF players ever have even the slightest ghost of a chance of doing something like a SSF Mageblood build.

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Blortad wrote:

This is something the game NEEDS to have, that or drop rates and item power need to be rebalanced for SSF play

SSF should not ever affect core game balance.

This is a big red flag for me when i see this line blurred.

And hey, I really gotta chuckle at that getting a chase item in ssf thing, sure.. You can and you could even go so far as to have a very carefuly crafted farming strategy even build to make it a reality but gods help you what will be left of your mind by then.

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SilentSymphony wrote:

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Blortad wrote:

This is something the game NEEDS to have, that or drop rates and item power need to be rebalanced for SSF play

SSF should not ever affect core game balance.

This is a big red flag for me when i see this line blurred.

And hey, I really gotta chuckle at that getting a chase item in ssf thing, sure.. You can and you could even go so far as to have a very carefuly crafted farming strategy even build to make it a reality but gods help you what will be left of your mind by then.

My point exactly. Let SSF players be SSF, and let trade players trade. The separation between the two exists for a reason because SSF players like that brain melting grind and trade players do not. But instead, currently, SSF is SSF and trade is... also half SSF because trade is needlessly cumbersome. I wanna trade, just let me trade. I wanna buy the item for Chaos and/or Divines, just let me do it and move on with my gameplay. Don't make me suffer through a trade system from the 90s because you cant figure out a trade tax that works. At the very least, bare minimum, let me conduct trades without leaving my map and move the trade site, as is, into an in-game interface so I don't have to tab out of the game and stop playing the game in order to play the game. Console has it, give it to me too!

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Blortad wrote:

My point exactly. Let SSF players be SSF, and let trade players trade. The separation between the two exists for a reason because SSF players like that brain melting grind and trade players do not. But instead, currently, SSF is SSF and trade is... also half SSF because trade is needlessly cumbersome. I wanna trade, just let me trade. I wanna buy the item for Chaos and/or Divines, just let me do it and move on with my gameplay.

Don't make me suffer through a trade system from the 90s because you cant figure out a trade tax that works. At the very least, bare minimum, let me conduct trades without leaving my map and move the trade site, as is, into an in-game interface so I don't have to tab out of the game and stop playing the game in order to play the game. Console has it, give it to me too!

I have nothing against the other game-modes except when they threaten to bring the core game population below a sustainable and fun level, I did not welcome SSF or Private Leagues as it directly impacted the player counts and availability of items.. This game sucks solo imo and you can see the general consensus of that with the ever increasing request for SSF+Trade which i get the whole concept but SSF+Trade literally can not exist by definition.

I'm tired of quitting leagues because there's not enough people playing that the market literally dies 1+ months in.

Not leaving map would help increase trades but plenty of people would still be in difficult content with no place to stop or would require a few moments to reach safety, Add into the mix that people WILL be dying during these trades which is gonna bring with posts complaining about it and overall the non-responding traders are not going to go away i would expect an average of a 25% reduction in trades ignored at best.

The tax stuff mentioned literally is only to hurt price-fixers and maybe lessen some of the spam in the high-end-trades.

Edit: not playing right now because of design changes to items that deleted builds, The economy already felt dead before the first month was up this time though and i do not appreciate it.. No surprise with all the bow crap they added this patch that people already burned through everything in a week.

It's very simple. If they want a mode where people can trade, they shouldn't make it actively difficult to trade. This is my absolute number 1 feature I want them to include in Path of Exile 2. They could do LITERALLY nothing else to the game besides make trading a no-direct-interaction system, call it Path of Exile 2, and I would be okay with it.

Make an "Auction League" where that's the only release, I don't care. Just stop making trades be miserable. I'm playing Ruthless with a friend and we're treating it like Duo Self Found because I just don't want to fuck with trades.