Separate Atlas Tree for EACH character?
" in the context of what we are talking about with character based or league wide atlas trees the current game design leaves the choice of playing one character or rolling multiple characters completely neutral and does not give an advantage to one choice or the other. thats not an opinion, its a fact. its not about liking it or not, its about does one choice give you more power than the other, if it does then it lends a bias to the decision making beyond allowing people to pick which ever option they find more fun. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :) Last edited by Snorkle_uk#0761 on Feb 4, 2023, 10:57:44 AM
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We should remove trade league to stop people feeling pressured to make a choice to play in the way that gives them more power.
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just explain how you'll make unmaking orbs and lower currency retain value after this change and i might agree with you that it would be great.
from the OTHER thread on this topic: " Innocence forgives you
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Orbs of unmaking etc “retaining their value” isn’t important though. It’s just an item; if you don’t want to trade it then don’t trade it, it’s not causing any problems.
GGG can always add more uses for currency orbs later anyway. |
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" What "power" you always speak of? What advantage over others? Do you even understand that it's a PvE single-player game(99.(9)% of the time)? There is no impact or interactions between a player base(aside from trading, but it's so tiny) :D What, someone's having a better build offends or limits you? Someone's having more currency offends or limits you? Someone's performing better offends or limits you? :D If so, heck, it's solely on you being not the sharpest tool in the shed. Years are passing, but people keep misinterpret their "ego" and "objective judging" :D Last edited by Prof549#3579 on Feb 5, 2023, 7:51:29 AM
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" " why would player power necessarily be related to other players? even when you play ssf, your character still has power. its a looter hack n slash, the entire game is designed around gaining xp and gaining items that increase your characters power. you have a 3 link and you want a 4 link, then 5, then 6 because it gives your character more power. pursuit of power is not only something that occurs between some kind of 'unethical trade league chads who dont understand what real gaming is about', it is fundamental to the character progression that arpgs are built around. one playstyle having an advantage over another, again, is not only something that matters if you are one of these competitive tradecore racers. you dont need another person there you are competing against for playstyle A having an advantage over playstyle B to matter because the game asks you to make a choice between being both of those guys. you can be the 1 character does everything guy or the im gonna reroll 4 alts guy, so if one has a strong advantage over the other in terms of fulfilling the fundamental reward structure the game is designed around you dont need someone else in this equation for that to apply external pressure to your decision making. being able to have 3+ atlas trees that you can switch between at will would be way more impactful in terms of your gameplay advantage in solo self found than it would be in trade league. in trade you can specialise in 1 thing, generate excess rewards in that activity, sell that excess on the market and then buy the rewards from all the other content you are missing out on. youre all in on delve, harbinger and bossing? fine, you can buy your oils, deli orbs, scarabs, catalysts, simus, breach stones, beasts, temple chronicles etc from trade. in solo self found where you have to farm all those things yourself the ability to have multiple trees fully optimised and devoted to getting all the things without having to make compromises or respec every time you wanna switch content is as massive advantage. not an advantage over the people you are competing against who dont exist because SSF and you live under a rock in a cave and have 0 contact with the community, but an advantage over the other way you could have played the game. this strange idea that its fine if the game heavily weights advantages to chosing playstyle A over playstyle B because if you dont want to be influenced by that you can just stop being such a tryhard and become a shit player who makes bad choices that handicap yourself at every turn is not really credible as a stance. people chose challenge modes which make the game harder for themselves, ssf, ruthless, hardcore etc, thats perfectly valid. but the game at its core is a never ending stream of player options and being good at the game is about picking the 'best' ones. heres some support gems, you are playing freezing pulse, are you going to put cold pen in that green socket or faster attacks? cold pen? really? why, why are you being such a wallstreet league powergoblin? "its a 50/50 choice between 2 gems, the game isnt forcing you to pick the one that gives your character more power, thats just you being an egotistical dull tool" come on, this isnt a serious stance to be taking. one option gives you character more power than the other and hence the game is pushing you towards making that choice regardless of what league or perceived level of competition from others you find yourself in. now in the case of support gems thats a good thing. there is right or wrong answers there when it comes to "what supports should i use?". there are options, some give more power than others, becoming good at the game is developing that knowledge base, that game mastery and making the 'right' choices that give you 'moar power'. if we look at the case of character selection, having that power dynamic exist would be a bad thing. if the witch is just superpower ez mode and the marauder is a fumbling trashcan thats bad for the game. the point of classes isnt to allow for a game mastery power play, its to allow players to pick a role architype they want to play. you dont want to weight that choice by having the options have vastly different power payoffs, you want to try and balance their potential power as evenly as possible in order to give players the freedom to follow the choice that is most appealing to them based on the playstyle or role fantasy they want to pursue. so the game has to understand its offering endless choices and some of them the game should offer a better and worse option from a power payoff perspective in order to facilitate the potential to be good at the game and make the 'right' choices, and in others the game needs to step back and offer as neutral and balanced a power dynamic as possible to allow the player different avenues to follow their preferred playstyles and express their creativity. so the question is what should the game do about a choice like am i a 1 character player who just wants to really go in and spend months, maybe years devoted to this 1 avatar or am i a creative butterfly type player who wants to keep rerolling constantly and have a ton of different builds? should that be a choice where the game pressures you by having an uneven power dynamic that pushes you towards one of those options or should that be a choice where the game stands back and says both these options are as fair and balanced as we can make them, you do you based on how you want to play the game? im arguing this should be a player preference choice where the game allows people to play the way they want to play without unnecessary power payoff influence. like i said, im in standard league with 29 endgame levelled characters, you give me an atlas tree for each one and ill have ascended it even being a tree. ill just have everything, i wont have to make any compromises ill get the full power of every worth while node on the tree at my fingertips all day every da. thats a massive power buff to me personally because im a multicharacter kind of player. this is just 1 aspect too, theres a whole host of other downsides weve mentioned. does the game really want to make a player consider rerolling their character because they messed up their atlas tree? again its about accepting the game will influence peoples behaviours. its not my behaviour, you guys are posting opinions based purely on advantaging yourselves, dont mistake me for coming from that same perspective. i would never reroll, id respec my tree if i needed to because im experienced and can become rich at will. im just not kidding myself that there are players who will feel pushed into that choice and the game devs have to recognise that and make a decision about if thats a behaviour the game wants to encourage. some of you may dismiss those sort of players and the pressure they feel in that situation but thats not a serious position to take when talking about global game balance decisions. so the question is how many times do you want me to repost a rewording of the exact same thing i said at the start before you guys stop intentionally not understanding it and actually absorb what im saying and engage with it in a serious and sincere fashion? i feel like everything im saying should be fairly obvious and im somewhat confused as to why ive had to repeat it so many times while im being responded to as if nothing ive said has really been understood. i think you guys understand what im saying, i just think you dont want to understand what im saying because you dont have a way to factor it into your thinking and still be able to credibly pursue an agenda of the atlas passive system being changed to give you personally more in game power, which is your agenda here. you guys kind of imply im the one in this conversation thats somehow obsessed with my advantages against others etc, but actually its you guys who are pursuing a request that will give you more ingame power and you dont care if that negatively impacts others. im actually putting forward an argument against my own personal ingame interests because its my sincere, objective evaluation of the impacts on the game and player base as a whole. so forgive me if i dont really buy this kind of moralising leaning regarding ideas of competition, trading, pvp in a pve, ego etc. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :) Last edited by Snorkle_uk#0761 on Feb 5, 2023, 10:05:30 AM
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" So, have everything. No one would bother(well, not me). I'm all up to that(while not caring in general). Have all the power buffs you want. I just don't care. I mind my own business. You think it's bad for others if you(or someone) would be more "successful" in the game? You always talk about "others" who would "suffer" because it'd give me/you/him an advantage. Who are those "others" and how exactly they'd suffer? They'd feel pressured to play one certain "best" way? Nothing would change. It'd be absolutely the same, but excluding a currency. Period. What agenda of advantage you keep speaking of? Me not spending useless currency is an advantage? Because Orbs of Unmaking ARE useless. And it's just a drag to respec the Atlas tree. It's a minor inconvenience, nothing more. There is 0 advantage or harm in not having this step. Also you are using "my" and "objective(-ly)" in the same sentence, hence i assume you don't quite understand the meanings behind the words you are using. Please, do a bit of a research before posting text sheets like that you got. Last edited by Prof549#3579 on Feb 5, 2023, 11:47:06 AM
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the my in "my sincere, objective evaluation of the impacts on the game" applies to my sincerity and my ability to evaluate the game.
" no, i think its bad if they feel pressured to play the game in a way they dont want to play it because its unnecessarily been made way more rewarding in order to allow you to not have to respec your tree. how are you unable to grasp this simple concept? you now claim you dont even care about the currency, so you want this in order to save yourself about 15 seconds unspeccing your current atlas points when you roll a new character a handful of times per league? that is how insignificantly trivial a qol you are asking for, and for that you are willing to endlessly plead total ignorance of the significant negative impact it would have on other players and the power play abuse cases it would leave the door open to despite people explaining it to repeatedly at length? lol, ok m8. c ya. I love all you people on the forums, we can disagree but still be friends and respect each other :)
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" Went as low as reporting my post to have a last word? :D I'd say it again. It's all exist only in your head. Show me those "pressured" people you speak of. If they exist. |
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If they do this, then they'll have to re-balance the entire atlas passive tree around that.
It's extremely powerful in its current form, especially when you unlock all your points. Just compare your average drops from a map at league start vs with a fully unlocked atlas tree. Makes sense that it comes with the opportunity cost of unmaking orbs when you want to change this. What you can realistically ask for is adjusting the drop rate of unmaking orbs so that it's easier to respec. Even this was a non-issue really, because they're plentiful. |
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