Roguelike vs Rogue-lite and why the distinction is important when discussing Sanctum

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

This is a really old topic elsewhere on the webs but now that GGG have given it a shot, it's important to discuss/clarify the difference.

Here's your TL;DR by the evidence presented below: The Forbidden Sanctum is not trying to be a roguelike but instead a rogue-lite.

That's why people here correctly compared it to Hades and not Nethack or Angband. If it's not turn-based, it's not a roguelike. If it draws inspiration from Rogue Legacy (the first of its kind and itself not a roguelike at all), it's a rogue-lite. They both have permadeath, but only the rogue-lite has meta-progression. Outside of a completely separate mode where each character death is absolute and no progress carries over (cornerstone of the roguelike), a PoE rogue-lite mode cannot but have metaprogression given your character doesn't actually 'die' in the Sanctum and takes some rewards from within it into the actual 'game'.

And here it is from GGG's own page for the league:

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As you explore the Sanctum, you'll discover a special altar that Templar Relics can be placed on. These relics make you more powerful in the Sanctum and persist from run to run.

This is to me an irrefutable example of meta-progression and, just in case the lack of turn-based gameplay wasn't enough, absolute proof that Sanctum is not an attempt at a roguelike.

You can accuse me of pedantry but a roguelike is to the rogue-lite, roughly speaking, what a book is to a bookshelf (presumably well organised by genre, author or series). They sound alike, they have some elemental connections, but they are different in almost every other practical way. Understanding the difference may help us more fairly and appropriately critique/criticise The Forbidden Sanctum as an attempt at a rogue-lite mode. Most if not all arguments that are based on unfavourable comparison of The Sanctum to a roguelike are null and void and GGG would be right to ignore them.

http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php/Berlin_Interpretation -- further reading on what a game needs to be a roguelike from as close to 'experts' on the topic as you'll likely find.

Bonus content: Why 'roguelike' but not 'roguelite'?

Rarely has a hyphen done so much heavy lifting as between the words 'rogue' and 'lite'. I haven't delved very deeply into this one other than to look up a few style guides, but I suspect it's because of the different origins of the terms: roguelike is a bit older and stuffier, so those who named it knew hyphenating compound words had specific rules. Rogue-lite, like its weird sibling Souls-like, inherits the more recent practice of hyphenating shit when in doubt even though it's kind of wrong. By most style guides, you only hyphenate when a compound word can be misunderstood (and a bunch of other little rules such as when 'self' is the prefix). We would never confuse roguelite or soulslike for anything else, so the hyphen is superfluous...EXCEPT that roguelike and roguelite are so damn close, the hyphen is welcome, at least in textual form.

In verbal form, fuck, they're about as messy as then and than, or thing and think.

Technically, if we really wanted to use a hyphen, we could call rogue-lites 'Rogue Legacy-like', but somehow I don't see that rolling off the tongue.

And to be fair, Wikipedia does list 'Souls-like' as 'Soulslike' so score one for the Wiki editors. Steam lists the genre as 'Souls-like', so boo to you, Gabe-Newell.

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Walkiry wrote:

Speaking of Diablo, were you by any chance a regular poster at the LL or AB? Your style of posts does remind me of it.

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xaerobb wrote:

This seems very inspiring to me...
You seem to be an expert when it comes to arpg games.
I'm just curious about this inspired post: is this your experience inspired by playing the 3.20 expansion or is it just your theoretical experience?

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Blejdzior wrote:

Guys. Is it only me, or this league content feels like totally negating any need for tank builds... I am playing poe since dominion league, and i always play tanks - in every game i play - and since now, every league was fine - i was just getting less loot etc

But now - i cant play tank, as to do dmg i need to take hits, and if i take hits, i lose the sanctum...

Before launch, they were telling that this league will provide beneficial fo any playstyle, but i must heavily disagree with that.

Glad with bonus for block and counters makes sanctum impossible to finish...

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nnilfoest wrote:

I'm not much in to Rougelike yet, but do like the element from time to time. This is the first time I hear Rougelite and definition of it. Good to learn new thing every day.

Pretty sure you know why it can't be rougelike with PoE. It's may be good as event only..... If they accept the fact that this event design for only some build to exist.

Better to slash the rat in Chaos Waste for this kind of experience.