Roguelike vs Rogue-lite and why the distinction is important when discussing Sanctum

Roguelike isn't limited to turn based. See games like Dungeon of the Endless, Binding of Isaac, or Muck for examples.

Rogue-adjacent games mostly just require randomized upgrades and permadeath. Roguelike means specifically no meta-progression, if you die you start over from scratch with no advantage. Roguelite means it has meta-progression, you die but keep something which you can use to make the next run easier. The "lite" refers only to the permadeath aspect, you still have to start over on death, but it's not as punishing as starting from scratch, making it more casual or "light."

The sanctum is clearly roguelite because of the relic mechanic. Being an action experience doesn't really factor into it. Though Steam has "new" tags for "action roguelike" and "traditional roguelike" ever since the genre become popular again and started diversifying.

the relic mechanic adds less meta progression than unlocking Judas on isaac though, or thunder thighs etc.

I'll be honest guys I quite like the league mechanic, simultaneously I find it quite offensive because it is shockingly bad. I don't know if it was sent to some developers that don't play these types of game or what but the entire buff/affliction/room structure could be improved upon by practically anybody over the space of a few hours.

I don't like it when I think armchair devs would actually improve something, it'll be interesting to see what they change in the obligatory 2 weeks prior to abandoning it but this ones gonna go just below synthesis on the best opportunities wasted by just not doing it properly.

Basically I think its a Rogl, not enough rogue and definitely isn't like or lite.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

I'll be honest guys I quite like the league mechanic, simultaneously I find it quite offensive because it is shockingly bad. I don't know if it was sent to some developers that don't play these types of game or what but the entire buff/affliction/room structure could be improved upon by practically anybody over the space of a few hours.

I want to like it so bad but its crazy right? Infernal sentinel charges a giga AoE arc from offscreen. You have to approach him to kill him (as some specs) hAhA jUSt StAy iN MelEE RanGe. Yeah, I've gotta get there first.

I watch ppl with 80% ms and the rotating flame skulls can't keep up with them. Meanwhile on my Chieftain it's just another thing that lowers my dps uptime.

Then they had the (not sarcastically) brilliant idea to give everyone identical defenses, but didn't do the same for offense. Let me know the next time I can boot up Hades, never walk into the game but instead go out to the garden and hold down right click with no thought, yielding me a steady stream of 'chaos orbs'. I then trade those 'chaos orbs' to Dusa to buy all the meta-progression power I need, then go back and stomp the core game. That would be stupid right? Why should anyone be able to farm maps for 10 million dmg characters then use it to trivialize what should have been the challenge of the mini-game?

Meanwhile on the progression side of things they have a proven working concept in Delve where the darkness keeps doing more damage and the light radius keeps getting smaller, but you spend your META PROGRESSION POINTS ON OUTPACING THE SCALING, gee wouldn't that be an idea for Sanctum? The coins are persistent and you spend them progressing your character by purchasing damage, max resolve, resolve durability, relics, artifacts, all kinds of things. Then leave the in-run rng to boons, afflictions, and your choice of pathing.

I just don't get it, it's so close yet so far away.

...

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Draegnarrr wrote:

the relic mechanic adds less meta progression than unlocking Judas on isaac though, or thunder thighs etc.

I don't know how you can consider doubling your base resolve and adding bonus inspiration per floor while significantly increasing coin pickups as a small amount of meta progression. I've seen some of the relics, they can have a very substantial effect on the league mechanic. A single relic isn't much, but you can fill the grid out and it adds up quite a bit. The meta progression is one of the most functional aspects of the league right now, and is an incredibly important part of it, if only resolve wasn't fubar.

Rogl rogl. *LaughsinPrequelDroid* We're doomed.

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Rogue-adjacent seems to be just another term for 'rogue-lite'. Let's not go muddying the waters here...

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Categories are important because without them we'd be wasting so many words repeating ourselves. PoE describe The Forbidden Sanctum with these (many) words:



This is literally TL;DR -- you can find it on their main page. That and they know Exiles are infamously impatient so no doubt the accompanying videos show and tell as much if not more.

But let's assume they wrote all that with at least a few readers in mind. It paints a pretty complete picture of what they're trying to do. It reads like copy because it is, aimed to entice and excite as much as it is to inform.

Now if we were creatures of supreme memory and unerring respect for minutiae above all else, this is how we would respond were someone to ask 'What is the Forbidden Sanctum and how does it work, according to GGG?' Because it's the perfect answer.

Unfortunately (or otherwise, as I'd argue) we are not that. We are busy little bees with terrible memories and only a passing respect for the details we think matter. So we scan that copy (or watch the videos, read the articles) and look for familiar information to create a summary and then, almost instinctively, apply an existing word or two that conveys it all to save anyone asking a lot of time and effort. It's just the considerate thing to do. (In the absence of any such words, the creator of this truly new thing has to laboriously talk it through, and then probably propose a short-hand term for it, which will almost certainly be forgotten once someone else comes up with a better one.)

So it proceeds, paragraph by paragraph. Now we have to keep in mind, the whole way, that this is not describing a new game but a mode within a game that already has its own style and mechanics. We know what that it is: an ARPG. That means we can assume the Sanctum is real-time; it is based on a single character's progress; loot and powerups are the sole aim.

And we're off.



Random map, blind progress, multi-floor dungeon, some sort of limited resource representing ability to progress, repeat journeys to go deeper? Okay, so roguelike or rogue-lite. But roguelikes *typically* are turn-based, so let's skew slightly closer to rogue-lite.



Room features can help or hinder you. Effects can persist. And each run has a random layout. Okay, so...roguelike or rogue-lite, with slight skew to rogue-lite still.



The dungeon has its own currency for loot. That currency is bound to the dungeon and there's an RNG spawned shop for it. Okay...so...roguelike or rogue-lite...this really isn't helping, GGG...



Risk v reward events. No change to judgment.



Rooms present 'actual game' rewards, with increasing stakes. More of this 'resolve' talk -- undefined beyond that, could just be fluff. But more importantly, persistent rewards gleaned from 'Sanctum' applied to 'real game'. That is a rogue-lite feature, since with a roguelike you *typically* start from scratch, no carryover or progression. So now we have two points of skew towards rogue-lite rather than roguelike.



Another event involving a previously unmentioned item. Whatever. More talk of 'persistent power' from run to run. Second point of rogue-lite skew reinforced.



A supreme, unique powerup found in the Sanctum, explicitly affecting the 'real game'. Second point of rogue-lite skew away from roguelike nature all but solidified.



More risk v reward repetition. Okay, so it has bosses. Very...useful information.

So we're at the end of our assessment. And if anyone who knows what ARPGs are asks what the Sanctum is, instead of repeating all of GGG's embellishment verbatim or even having to reword our own progressive summary, we can just say, knowing all of the above, 'it's an attempt at a rogue-lite'.

And if they don't know what a rogue-lite is, THEN we have to start walking backwards, but at least we can do so avoiding unnecessary references to roguelikes, because...once you've decided what it is, that's all you need to use. Even if the rogue-lite has roguelike elements, to say 'it's a rogue-lite which is sort of like a roguelike which is based on rogue' to someone who doesn't know any of the terms is just malicious.

Naturally it's when people have their own definitions for one or both terms that things get messy, and we get threads like this. Unfortunately the only thing to do then is to back and figure out where the source of the disagreement comes from and sort it out. Which is...what I've tried to do here. Emphasis on try. :)

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And as I've said, the word 'rogue' doesn't occur even once in all that official description, neither as 'roguelike' nor 'rogue-lite' even though someone aware of either term would spot immediately that's what's going on. They might have used it in less formal announcements or in passing, but their circumlocution on the official page is...not helpful at all. Just admit what you've done and own it, GGG. Jeeze.

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So the next question: does the reality match the proposal? How closely and how well does The Forbidden Sanctum in action match the official description of the league/expansion? Given said description doesn't mention 'rogue' once, you technically don't have to either. But feel free to, because you don't have to be as diplomatic or pussyfooted as they were.

Since we're talking definitions (and since it's a topic dear to me, having played many a Nethack session), the original "rogue-lite", Rogue Legacy, did create substantial discussion when comparing it to, if you like, "purer" roguelikes. Because it's actually quite adjacent.

Meta-progress already existed. Specifically, bones files. Online Nethack play can share bones files between users, and there's Hearse, which did the same for local games. There are endless discussions about achieving ascension jumping off a bones file vs. raw (it's not like it was free stuff, you had to contend with cursed items, but does it really matter if that +4 Grayswandir is cursed?).

Rogue Legacy formalized what was otherwise already present but RNG-bound, and made it a core part of the gameplay. Not a criticism, mind you, they did very well. You don't spawn a new term to refer to your game and its successors by being bad.

The "permanent" progress of relics is so slow, and so painful (at least for melee) that I don't really see it as progress at all. It's about as impactful as the difference between starting Nethack as a Tourist and starting Nethack as a Valkyrie. You did have different options, after all, and some starts are easier than others.

The other thing is that the sanctum resets every time. This is a lot more "roguelike" than rogue-lite, though of course not exclusively.

My main point of contention over this is that roguelike and rogue-lite are much more adjacent than that, once you look under the hood. Turn-based was pushed into quasi-real-time by variants that introduced a server tick - making turns pass even if you didn't touch the keyboard - and succeeding by stepping over your predecessor's corpse was always a thing in Nethack.

Which is a shame. I was wary of Sanctum in the same way I was wary of Blight. I quite like tower defence games, but good Lord did their implementation suck (it got better, then it got WAY worse with Archnemesis, and right now it's been too short to really judge the new "rares"). When the "roguelike" and "rogue-lite" terms started to fly I braced, because knowing those games quite well, I was keenly aware of how easy it is to completely screw it up.

My wild guess is that they considered the meta-progression, added it, then got scared and nerfed it to hell. Being charitable and allowing that there might actually been some testing and development.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Rogue-adjacent seems to be just another term for 'rogue-lite'. Let's not go muddying the waters here...

Rogue-adjacent refers to roguelikes and roguelites of all varieties, it's an umbrella term for anything related to or adjacent to Rogue. It's not a genre or categorization, it's just English.

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Walkiry wrote:

Since we're talking definitions (and since it's a topic dear to me, having played many a Nethack session), the original "rogue-lite", Rogue Legacy, did create substantial discussion when comparing it to, if you like, "purer" roguelikes. Because it's actually quite adjacent.

Meta-progress already existed. Specifically, bones files. Online Nethack play can share bones files between users, and there's Hearse, which did the same for local games. There are endless discussions about achieving ascension jumping off a bones file vs. raw (it's not like it was free stuff, you had to contend with cursed items, but does it really matter if that +4 Grayswandir is cursed?).

Rogue Legacy formalized what was otherwise already present but RNG-bound, and made it a core part of the gameplay. Not a criticism, mind you, they did very well. You don't spawn a new term to refer to your game and its successors by being bad.

The "permanent" progress of relics is so slow, and so painful (at least for melee) that I don't really see it as progress at all. It's about as impactful as the difference between starting Nethack as a Tourist and starting Nethack as a Valkyrie. You did have different options, after all, and some starts are easier than others.

The other thing is that the sanctum resets every time. This is a lot more "roguelike" than rogue-lite, though of course not exclusively.

My main point of contention over this is that roguelike and rogue-lite are much more adjacent than that, once you look under the hood. Turn-based was pushed into quasi-real-time by variants that introduced a server tick - making turns pass even if you didn't touch the keyboard - and succeeding by stepping over your predecessor's corpse was always a thing in Nethack.

Which is a shame. I was wary of Sanctum in the same way I was wary of Blight. I quite like tower defence games, but good Lord did their implementation suck (it got better, then it got WAY worse with Archnemesis, and right now it's been too short to really judge the new "rares"). When the "roguelike" and "rogue-lite" terms started to fly I braced, because knowing those games quite well, I was keenly aware of how easy it is to completely screw it up.

My wild guess is that they considered the meta-progression, added it, then got scared and nerfed it to hell. Being charitable and allowing that there might actually been some testing and development.

Wow, really awesome response!

I obviously didn't know about bones files and am going to take a small dive in a bit. But I will ask since I feel it's pertinent to the topic: was that meta-progression player-made or developer-intended? In other words, was it aftermarket or part of the product as was?

To my knowledge rogue-lites also reset the environment per run, although they DO have set areas with certain specifics (a castle, a cave, a dungeon, etc). But then came the natural collision of that with a factor defining the other 'run-based' genre du jour, the Soulslike: the persistent dungeon that allows you to fine-tune each run based on knowledge gleaned *and* power accumulated. So if the randomised layout per run is more roguelike than rogue-lite now, I totally cede that point and let the judgment needle swing a little back to the roguelike and away from rogue-lite.

Regarding real-time and turn-based: you make a good point, and we have to also remember that the mould for the ARPG was itself originally turn-based. Diablo 1 only became real-time when Brevik gave real-time Diablo testing a go (there was a lot of scepticism) and realised how well it works. I'd argue (maybe after a few more beers) that THAT weekend was the moment when Diablo became something truly memorable and not 'just another rpg'. It was one of those before-and-after time-breaking moments. So with that in mind, and the nature of the 'server tick', the division between real-time and turn-based becomes less relevant. But I maintain in PoE's case, even back when we had to deal with a sort of unintended turn-based effect from desync, the real-time nature of the game pushes Sanctum deeper into rogue-lite than roguelike territory. Through that post-Diablo moment. Once they did away with desync, GGG embraced the 'timing' of their design much more aggressively, as shown by the Labyrinth, which 100% could not have been done with desync. I actually think they had that idea well before they fixed desync. Sanctum has been repeatedly compared to Lab, so I think that decisively places it as real-time/timing /reflex based rather than the inherently tactical nature of true turn-based gaming.

Thank you again for your post. Really thought-provoking.

edit: Okay, little dive done. So as I read it, bones files are built into some roguelikes (specifically nethack?) as a sort of random chance to respawn a level after you've died. This includes loot lost on death *and* whatever monsters caused that death, so it's considered a two-edged sword. Some reddit discussion indicated that players often delete bones files as they feel it fucks with the RNG a little too much. Either way, since the progress is still dictated by RNG and isn't guaranteed, I'd say that Rogue Legacy's innovation of making accumulated progress deterministic is the first instance of true meta progression in the evolution of the rogue 'legacy', if you will.

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Astasia wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

Rogue-adjacent seems to be just another term for 'rogue-lite'. Let's not go muddying the waters here...

Rogue-adjacent refers to roguelikes and roguelites of all varieties, it's an umbrella term for anything related to or adjacent to Rogue. It's not a genre or categorization, it's just English.

Umbrellas are fine when we don't have more details, but I am pretty sure this thread has already rendered an umbrella term for the two smaller umbrellas being discussed sort of redundant, if not outright confusing. It also has potential for unnecessary, irrelevant goalpost movement.

And I think you've just created a false dichotomy at the end there given 'English' is a means by which we define words like 'genre' and 'categorisation', so...uh...yeah.

I apologize if my use of the word "adjacent" confused you.