Roguelike vs Rogue-lite and why the distinction is important when discussing Sanctum
" Apology accepted on behalf of those for whom we are trying to achieve clarity here. Go in peace, wise and smart fellow. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Dec 13, 2022, 12:45:55 AM
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I'm definitely not going to get caught up in a 3rd, "adjacent" definition, lol.
Again, my point still stands that I'm not sure its relevant anyways what specific term GGG intended to pay homage to this legaue, nor whether the players actual care, as long as it lands well to them, understanding each player might have a specific expectation in the grey area "roguelite" exists in. Reddit isnt always the best place to see what reactions are, mostly because of how upvoting / downvoting works, but there were a few decent posts I saw, that's seemed reasonable. Some of the valid ones revolved around the 1 floor max reservation (8 rooms), and the disconnect that was happening. Not remembering what they had planned or selected. I could see wanting to save 4 floors (32 rooms), and do it in one true shot, which actually is more rogue-ish. I could see how mapping and other activities could make Sanctum feel disjointed. Others describe the wild Santcum experience variations whether you choose melee, minions, or range, with melee clearly being a hot mess. Normally the character you select isnt a hindering factor in a rogue experience. Its early though in fairness. Perhaps Sanctum will get smoothed out a bit over the coming weeks. I wont be playing, but still lurking of course. "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
- Abraham Lincoln |
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I trust the scuttlebutt and conch-passing on niche reddits, especially when I randomly spot a dev I deeply respect on one giving his take on roguelikes vs ARPGs. :P
Two relevant quotes from that one btw: " which seems to reinforce my own stance, but: " With the proviso that in Spelunky, one can: " Now that's important because he's pointing out that a pause option simulates turn-based play, and I agree based on another real-time game I played the shit out of but paused a LOT: Neverwinter Nights. And in that case it made sense because of course NWN was based on one of the longest-running turn-based roleplaying games: Dungeons & Dragons. So...in the end, I consider Mark1's sentiments a gentle bulwarking against the notion that The Forbidden Sanctum aspires to be a roguelike but instead a rogue-lite, *with the qualification* that Mark1 doesn't mention rogue-lites in his post because they weren't relevant to it. However, he does stress that turn-based is, to him, a cornerstone of the roguelike and not the ARPG, sooooo...these are dots I do not feel bad connecting. PS lurking *is* playing...just a different sort of game. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Dec 13, 2022, 2:24:02 AM
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" I'm probably missing some better relics for comparison but just going off my own stash they are completely irrelevant What i'm trying to say is if you add every relic together that i've found so far they would make less impact on a run than a single +1 dodge would in hades. Infact they haven't impacted any of my runs so far i've either smooth sailed or failed due to which afflictions im given. |
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No clue what it is, for now its a leaguemechanic that can thankfully be ignored up to lvl83 (where monsterpower gets locked in place and players become stronger)
It approximately takes one month before most players reach maps and accumulate enough orbs to craft gear which lets you play "hard*"-content, the remaining two months can be played like a game if a few friends remain on the list. And because its a tradinggame where you are in competetition with others, leveling up together and sharing orbs is not a welcome sight under timeconstraints. The yellow mobs did indeed feel more significant this time around, seems to be ANs influence, and for that reason it probably takes another 3 weeks till i´m allowed to set foot in this black hole vortex thingy. Unless i want 10minutefights per mob which lead to slow resolvedrain. Dungeonnotcrawler ? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drDs-Y5DNH8
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" Dungeonrunner, technically, but that's invoking one of the truly great lost hits of the 2000s, Dungeon Runners, an MMO with Diablo-style gameplay and satirical writing. Pretty sure there was a spell called Blue Screen of Death. And quest descriptions like this:
Spoiler
 Townston. LOL. But yeah, PoE is a dungeon runner. Dungeon dasher. Dungeon sprinter. In fact none of those really capture it. Dungeon blinker maybe. None of which sound even vaguely in line with the pace of the roguelike to me. If I like a game, it'll either be amazing later or awful forever. There's no in-between. I am Path of Exile's biggest whale. Period. Last edited by Foreverhappychan#4626 on Dec 13, 2022, 4:59:57 AM
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" Yeah, bones files were, are, and forever will be a contentious feature, although they're very much intended by the developers. Their status as a double-edged sword is quite obvious once you think about the game progression of Nethack. The player is supposed to get to the bottom of the dungeon, steal the amulet of Yendor, then move back UP to attempt ascension. When doing this, the wizard will repeatedly appear and summon all sorts of horrendous creatures in an attempt to recover his prize. If one were to die during this ascension close to the exit, and a bones file were created, the next unsuspecting adventurer will come upon a level filled with gorgons, dragons, minotaurs, and who knows what else, at a time when the occasional Rothe would be considered a challenge. Results are rarely pretty in those cases. But to go back to roguelike and rogue-lite, you are absolutely correct that Rogue Legacy cemented the out-of-game meta-progression as a core feature, away from the RNG nature of bones files and the like. As I said, if you do something different and it ends up spawning new terminology together with spiritual successors, you must have done it really well to start with. As for Diablo, ironically the fact that it didn't start as a real-time ARPG probably helped, because it did something no other ARPG has done since. Diablo isn't exactly real-time, there's a sort of internal tick rate because all actions in the game happen in multiples of 0.05 seconds. Balrogs, IIRC, and players with a particular set of gear, had the fastest action - stun recovery at 0.10 seconds. A hasted sword would attack in 0.15 seconds if one was a Warrior, and so on and so forth. This, together with the grid nature of the whole thing (another trait inherited from its roots I'd bet), made the flow of the game absolutely brilliant. It was done away in Diablo 2 and has never been seen since. I kind of understand why though, with modifiers to attack and movement speed that could appear in multiple pieces of gear and add up to literally any number, having such clunky "breakpoints" to attack and move speed would have been awful. Speaking of Diablo, were you by any chance a regular poster at the LL or AB? Your style of posts does remind me of it. Last edited by Walkiry#7196 on Dec 13, 2022, 5:44:33 AM
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" The free relic I got in act 2 adds like +25 max resolve and restores around 25 resolve on boss kill. It takes up 2 slots in the grid, which is what 4x6 or 4x8? Just stacking 10 of those nearly doubles base resolve and restores the equivalent of a full resolve bar every boss kill. |
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on a good run I finish with 1000 inspiration though, so doubling my bar doesn't seem particularly relevant :p
i'm not disputing what your saying btw I just think we fall on opposite sides of what meta progression means and what its being compared to in this circumstance. So far in FS here I've experienced the least meta progression of any rogue-anything i've ever played including ones that ostensibly don't have meta progression. |
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" I imagine that is mostly because you are playing a hexblast trapper with temp chains and can safely ignore the resolve mechanic. Almost like you built specifically to trivialize the challenge of the league. Try it with melee and see if extra resolve would be helpful or not then. |
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