The most important issue has not been adressed properly

Bad loot
A hidden modifier to loot quantity has simply been removed and replaced with an inadequate 300% which has led to not enough loot dropping, making it so that juicing your maps is not worth it. if juicing is not worth it as it is right now, 6 man parties making less than a solo heist player, then there is no endgame, there is no point in improving your character to be able to farm juiced maps. the only thing that retains value is playing content once, then quitting, farming fixed rewards league mechanics over and over and bossing.

Either this has simply not been adressed, or it still has not been fixed. Most people i know quit because there is no point in farming or gearing towards endgame.

The curse nerf for rare and normal mobs shows this too, its a nerf to player power for juiced content like 100% deli, simulacrums and other endgame content that has a lot of rare/magic/normal mobs.

I really cant wrap my head around this

"

impulze3 wrote:

Bad loot
A hidden modifier to loot quantity has simply been removed and replaced with an inadequate 300% which has led to not enough loot dropping, making it so that juicing your maps is not worth it. if juicing is not worth it as it is right now, 6 man parties making less than a solo heist player, then there is no endgame, there is no point in improving your character to be able to farm juiced maps. the only thing that retains value is playing content once, then quitting, farming fixed rewards league mechanics over and over and bossing.

Either this has simply not been adressed, or it still has not been fixed. Most people i know quit because there is no point in farming or gearing towards endgame.

The curse nerf for rare and normal mobs shows this too, its a nerf to player power for juiced content like 100% deli, simulacrums and other endgame content that has a lot of rare/magic/normal mobs.

I really cant wrap my head around this

did you watch stream or not, since it was addressed. for normal ppl loot was better then before and its nerfed for full party mega giga juice party players.

and i played normally and loot was better then ever before.

i think i playing different game then 90% ppl from this forums

"

anti4z500 wrote:

"

impulze3 wrote:

Bad loot
A hidden modifier to loot quantity has simply been removed and replaced with an inadequate 300% which has led to not enough loot dropping, making it so that juicing your maps is not worth it. if juicing is not worth it as it is right now, 6 man parties making less than a solo heist player, then there is no endgame, there is no point in improving your character to be able to farm juiced maps. the only thing that retains value is playing content once, then quitting, farming fixed rewards league mechanics over and over and bossing.

Either this has simply not been adressed, or it still has not been fixed. Most people i know quit because there is no point in farming or gearing towards endgame.

The curse nerf for rare and normal mobs shows this too, its a nerf to player power for juiced content like 100% deli, simulacrums and other endgame content that has a lot of rare/magic/normal mobs.

I really cant wrap my head around this

did you watch stream or not, since it was addressed. for normal ppl loot was better then before and its nerfed for full party mega giga juice party players.

and i played normally and loot was better then ever before.

i think i playing different game then 90% ppl from this forums

i ran into severe loot shortage very early in the league but it quickly went back to normal once they buffed drop rates across the board and my character grown stronger (and AN was nerfed to the ground as well).

I think this early league feedback was combined effect of those things:

-your character being nowhere near power level of your 3.18 endgame character - you can't clear that fast anymore. Not yet at least.
-AN was bad for the first week. Really bad
-content creators released a bunch of videos and people were parroting their nonsense about 97 percent loot reduction.

People overestimate how much loot you would get in 3.18 from a standard map. Just alch and go red map. No altars, about half of the points allocated, no scarabs, no sextants. If you are comparing a 100+ IIQ map with 132 passives, 4 gilded scarabs and 4 sextant modifiers to a regular alch & go map then yes, you can get 90-95% less loot in the latter. But it was always like this lol.

^this was never the issue. The issue is full juicing, period. Not alch and go or normal mapping.

The idea behind juicing maps was adding tons of mobs and league content for added loot. The loot nerfs specifically targeted ONLY that additional content. So, yes, for the average player loot was fine or improved, but for any type of juicing the loot was slashed by comparison. What is the point now of running impossibly difficult maps filled with monsters that only the tippy top builds are capable of completing....if it basically gives you no extra loot anymore?

This is still a real problem. Delirium is pretty terrible to run nowadays. Alva is pretty terrible to run in maps. Beyond is pretty darn bad. These are things that the "Average" player doesn't deal with in excess but the "juicer" interacts (or interacted) with on a regular basis.

I think its a ridciulous concept to bring DOWN the top end so that it's only slightly better than just alch-n-go the way it is now. The amount of currency and build strength required to solo run ultra juiced maps should necessitate higher rewards and that part of the game was simply gutted and not fixed. The only mention of juiced content is the ability to fuse scarabs now, which brings down the upfront cost of running the juiced content which is okay i guess...

It's not all about party play getting nerfed, its juicing in general that got hit really really hard.

*Think of the problem this way: a regular map is "free". Everything that drops in the map is pure profit. a "juiced" map has an upfront cost that might be anywhere from 20C to potentially over 100C, but the return from doing that juicing no longer makes up for the added cost to run it whereas before with the quant bonuses it was almost guaranteed that you would make a return on your investment. I fail to see the "good" in operating at a loss 99.9% of the time when I can operate at a gain 100% of the time NOT juicing.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

*Think of the problem this way: a regular map is "free". Everything that drops in the map is pure profit. a "juiced" map has an upfront cost that might be anywhere from 20C to potentially over 100C, but the return from doing that juicing no longer makes up for the added cost to run it whereas before with the quant bonuses it was almost guaranteed that you would make a return on your investment. I fail to see the "good" in operating at a loss 99.9% of the time when I can operate at a gain 100% of the time NOT juicing.

IF it is not profitable, then don't do it. I don't think GGG likes extreme juicing. Also there is always a point where adding extra juice doesn't add more rewards. The game designers can't reward players exponentially, it needs to taper off in the extreme limits.

"

jsuslak313 wrote:

^this was never the issue. The issue is full juicing, period. Not alch and go or normal mapping.

The idea behind juicing maps was adding tons of mobs and league content for added loot. The loot nerfs specifically targeted ONLY that additional content. So, yes, for the average player loot was fine or improved, but for any type of juicing the loot was slashed by comparison. What is the point now of running impossibly difficult maps filled with monsters that only the tippy top builds are capable of completing....if it basically gives you no extra loot anymore?

This is still a real problem. Delirium is pretty terrible to run nowadays. Alva is pretty terrible to run in maps. Beyond is pretty darn bad. These are things that the "Average" player doesn't deal with in excess but the "juicer" interacts (or interacted) with on a regular basis.

I think its a ridciulous concept to bring DOWN the top end so that it's only slightly better than just alch-n-go the way it is now. The amount of currency and build strength required to solo run ultra juiced maps should necessitate higher rewards and that part of the game was simply gutted and not fixed. The only mention of juiced content is the ability to fuse scarabs now, which brings down the upfront cost of running the juiced content which is okay i guess...

It's not all about party play getting nerfed, its juicing in general that got hit really really hard.

*Think of the problem this way: a regular map is "free". Everything that drops in the map is pure profit. a "juiced" map has an upfront cost that might be anywhere from 20C to potentially over 100C, but the return from doing that juicing no longer makes up for the added cost to run it whereas before with the quant bonuses it was almost guaranteed that you would make a return on your investment. I fail to see the "good" in operating at a loss 99.9% of the time when I can operate at a gain 100% of the time NOT juicing.

Yes alva is dogshit but I always hated alva so i don't care that much. But ran all other league mechanics and I have to disagree about juicing not being worth it. It's absolutely worth it. Any players really ran alva for alva alone? No, they stuck it in there to add mobs to the map (doing delirium strategy). You can still do it.

Delirium mirror can still drop 200+ simulacrum splinters and many delirium orbs from a completed run. Delirium *map* was largely unaffected by loot nerfs, your bars fill up as they always do.

Breach strategy gives many chayula breachstones and chayula breach compasses were just 25-30c each. I have like 50 chayula stones in my stash after running 40 maps (10 sets of sextants). This is bad? One is worth 80c+!

Expedition is amazing with grand design packsize and so is Harvest. I was getting 6-8k yellow juice from a set of 4 conqueror maps (100% packsize with grand design). 2 divines profit from 4 maps from harvest juice alone. And i had expedition in there simultaneously, my locker is full of good logbooks.

Legion strategy same thing. Full emblems are common drops with passives for it, chests drop good stuff.

Blight is great as it always was. Bulk of the loot comes from opening the chests, you don't really care about the big loot explosion from mobs near the pump. And it's still big.

Heist is basically unchanged too.

The only strategy that got hit particularly hard was Harbinger, as exalted shards were contributing a big percentage of value extracted from it (i'd say that was the majority of its value). With exalts losing over 90% value this mechanic became terrible and not worth your time at all. This changes in 3.20 and that Harvinger memory now looks quite good, doesn't it?

Game is evolving, it doesn't have to be the same strategy that's the best forever. We shifted from simply adding omgwtfillion of monsters into our maps towards more targeted farming, with scarabs, sextants and atlas tree build. There are people that still cry because of nemesis3 removal. No one cares, the world moves on.

"

Esubane wrote:

...
People overestimate how much loot you would get in 3.18 from a standard map. Just alch and go red map. No altars, about half of the points allocated, no scarabs, no sextants. If you are comparing a 100+ IIQ map with 132 passives, 4 gilded scarabs and 4 sextant modifiers to a regular alch & go map then yes, you can get 90-95% less loot in the latter. But it was always like this lol.

No i dont, i played standard MF and the difference between 3.19 and 3.18 is night and day. The last days before the new league i farmed 4000 divines, dropped 2 magebloods, a squire and a headhunter just blasting full juice maps with 3 deli orbs. i tried doing the same in 3.19 for weeks and got absolutely nothing, straight up loosing currency because i juiced. The drop off in loot is massive and it makes sense because they removed the innate monster bonuses and beyond. what you're talking about also isnt the loot im speaking of its keys to league mechanics that drop loot at the end and that too got nerfed unless you play league mechanics that drop fixed loot: bligth chest, legion chests, heist chests, expedition chests. Ofc you wont notice the drop off if you only play those.

The loot reduction is in the 90+% and i tried on and off to play juiced maps. normally i would get a T1 every juiced map with 190 IIQ 700 IIR and now that has changed to barely 1 over 10+ maps effectively making me loose currency if i juice maps, rendering the whole gameplay loop pointless.

Its subjective too but i'm not just speaking for myself with this, most MF players in our guild have quit the game or are only afk in hideout nowadays because the gameplay is not worth it anymore and i'm afraid soon they wont even afk anymore because standard is officially dying even tho it seemed to be already dead.

they removed public remove-only tabs, forcing people to buy tabs if they wanna sell old items which has reduced the trade listings in standard by over 95% so nobody trades. they changed everyones main currency from ex to divine leading to almost nobody having currency, exalts being nearly worthless and prices skyrocketing. obviously that doesn't matter for league but yeah the main point stands and affects league the same way, loot has been trashed and is continued to be trashed and if it doesnt get adressed many players will not return

I am well aware there are other options. There will ALWAYS be other or better options in a league. But ALL options got gutted in 3.19. Now, you are hit slightly less hard by running certain content which is deemed "amazing" now....but that is only compared to the garbage that was 3.19. Nothing you can possibly run now is "amazing" by 3.18 standards.

"GGG hates juicing"...that is ridiculous. They invented scarabs, kept years and years of league content, and continuously added to the ways content could be juiced. For YEARS the top end was always about adding and juicing more and more content. Scarabs/Sextants/Watchstones/Voidstones/Atlas Passive tree: all of these were separately released and directly point to GGG WANTING players to juice. And then they outright gut it...

Of course, none of this would be a problem at all if GGG actually, FINALLY, looked at drop quality. But the creative team seems to be allergic to fixing the trash loot problem. LMAO conversion drops from AN, lmao 100s of blacksmiths, lmao rain of flasks...they attempted to make loot meaningful and that was what they came up with.

Make juicing offer no additional loot, but instead offer BETTER loot.

investment should be a risk, not having guaranteed profits.

also, the game has multiple endgame scenarios, why should juicing maps always be the most profitable?

in single player games it's no problem if players find ways to win the game by abusing bugs and using exploits or just being professionals and let them go ham on endgame content, getting ultra rich in the process and compare their epeens on reddit.

in multiplayer games that's not healthy for the game cause it allows those guys to dominate the economy and cause item price inflation.

"

vio wrote:

investment should be a risk, not having guaranteed profits.

also, the game has multiple endgame scenarios, why should juicing maps always be the most profitable?

in single player games it's no problem if players find ways to win the game by abusing bugs and using exploits or just being professionals and let them go ham on endgame content, getting ultra rich in the process and compare their epeens on reddit.

in multiplayer games that's not healthy for the game cause it allows those guys to dominate the economy and cause item price inflation.

Investments ? this isn't a stock trading simulalator, its an ARPG based around loot

I disagree with almost all your points, this is a game about power fantasy and finding loot. You invest into your maps and you get more loot, you invest into your character and you get more loot faster. While it can be a gamble to invest into your maps it should on average be guaranteed profit and a net positive. If it isnt you can run into a dead end and get demotivated enough to simply quit the game. Their changes have increased that probability to the point where 6 man MF parties that play every league have quit the game.

If there is no incentive to juice your maps for more loot because its a risk and on average making you loose currency while spending time its simply not fun and out of the scope for what the game was built around, demotivating and has made me personally quit playing for more than an hour every other day because i don't enjoy grinding without loot.