So serious discussion Chris wants Hard Mode his player base want Casual mode

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Why is everything about isolating the party experience to near non existence?? Weakening the multiplayer.

Because if they made multiplayer even more powerful than it is today, or if they gated content, bosses items or rewards behind having to team up with people, the game would lose half its playerbase.

hardmode sounds interesting.

d2r and d3 are pretty casual - it's nice to fill another niche.

go chris go!

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Phrazz wrote:

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鬼殺し wrote:

For minmaxing, that advice is fine. But for basic gameplay? A game has failed if that's what you have to do to experience it. A puzzle that can't be solved just by engaging with it is not a puzzle; it's a deception.

But 'engaging with PoE' now automatically means stuff like 'using third party trade sites', 'watching videos' and the like -- i.e. the metagame. And that comes back to what I said elsewhere, probably on a different account: the metagame cannot be part' of the actual game. It's linguistically impossible, like saying two parallel lines met in a bar. Once the so-called metagame (which should be optional) is part of the game, it's just the game itself.

What IS "basic gameplay"? and what IS "angaging with PoE"?

Too me, this is all about layers. And most of these layers are totally optional if a player is only doing "basic gameplay".

If a player just wants to do "basic gameplay" and "engage with PoE", what out-of-the-game tools do he really need? What tools are/were YOU using when doing "basic gameplay"?

Don't get me wrong here, I absolutely think that the in-game information tool in PoE needs to improve and contain way more information that it does right now. Hell, I think most of the non-datamined information on PoEDB should be available in-game. But is this "basic gameplay"? Do yo have to know all of this to "engage with PoE"?

PoE is a game with a LOT to learn - for people that want to learn. And people that want to learn, will always seek more sources of information. I understand that some people just want to slap on a skill, throw a few passive nodes on the tree - and enjoy the whole game and beat the toughest bosses. But PoE has never been that game, has it? Hell, people used to EXALT maps 7-8 years ago because sustaining maps was more or less impossible.

On phone so please excuse the brevity. Or revel in it. Either is valid.

Basic=campaign. I made it to act 6 before realising even my somewhat experienced organic attempt was doomed.

Engage with poe=play it any way but organically.

As I said elsewhere: the desire to go beyond the game must follow the joy of playing it first. I did not learn chess by watching videos of various grandmaster matches or poring through gambit books. I learned by playing it with my dad and some friends. I had no real desire to be great at it so I put aside those meta tools. I still enjoy it as a game. Had my father not sat me down and walked me through a game but instead said here are some books, read these and we will get started, I would have hated it utterly.

So maybe it is because I learn by doing with guidance rather than by studying that I failed to even clear PoEs campaign even though I have done so many times in the past. Maybe PoE is strictly for the sort of person who learns not by doing but by front loading their knowledge. Actually I suspect that is mostly it.

And there then is a type of sunk cost fallacy. If a person puts all that time into front loading so that it becomes more and more natural over time, then it makes sense that they would "engage with PoE" well beyond its core campaign.

My thumbs have hit their limit. I will leave it there.

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Phrazz wrote:

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Why is everything about isolating the party experience to near non existence?? Weakening the multiplayer.

Because if they made multiplayer even more powerful than it is today, or if they gated content, bosses items or rewards behind having to team up with people, the game would lose half its playerbase.

Ye I've heard this before. Tho party development doesn't have to mean unique items that are only attained from the party evolved gameplay. Single player is able to attain these items at the same speed. If anything parties should be rewarded with fashion event items for new party zones & not ness gated items. Or some other party reward that single players won't mind.

Irony alert. Single players mad that party players are stronger, when single players are nearly against most multiplayer features. They want to have their foot lodged so the door won't shut & yet they shut the door too.

" Just enough multiplayer to get people to my meh isolated garrison I mean hideout "

" Just enough multiplayer so they may get sea sickness trying to keep pace with the zoomer class & have half the party quit to rejoin over not keeping pace with the zoomer. "

D2 had more pvp duels than POE does. Even if D2 was unfair. It still had more duels. Not that duels is as fun as IRO WOE.

Also why does sizing yourself to other players matter? Their isn't a endgame town thats not a ghosttown. Most players are only near hideouts. Literally high lvl people have to help lowbies lvl, just to show people their progression as theirs little format game wise to do so.

Maybe this game has too many hideout campers. I do admire single player to some degree, I was listening to a Tristram ambient song. Why not both anyways? It's not like more party zones equals less story zones. The more popular streamers are waiting for party feature roadmaps. lol people leaving over party features. What is the single player alternative to poe?

Also if you only want to evolve the PVE and not evolve the party, social town, open zones to explore, rp, or pvp social forum features. Then why do you get the benefits of multiplayer? Why does it matter if another person is stronger, showing off shouldn't matter, you don't want a better town for that, so why should it matter. You want stash zoomers leaving a bite size town or a hideout. So who are you weighing yourself against & where? Your friends list. Or do you have to take photos & write a guide for the forums?

Brilliant. Eitherway ye I don't believe single players get to talk about how awesome it is to rival other players. Single players don't give a damn about other players. They want extra features for their stuff, yet will trash any multiplayer features. Mild salsa.

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wjameschan wrote:

I made it to act 6 before realising even my somewhat experienced organic attempt was doomed.

I'm getting dizzy by all of these alts, dude :P

I wrote a short essay here, but deleted it all to ask one question, because I need more context: Why was it doomed? Or why do you feel it was doomed? And what is an "organic attempt"?

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RuneLuthien wrote:

Also if you only want to evolve the PVE and not evolve the party, social town, open zones to explore, rp, or pvp social forum features. Then why do you get the benefits of multiplayer? Why does it matter if another person is stronger, showing off shouldn't matter, you don't want a better town for that, so why should it matter.

I don't care if people are stronger than me or not. But the game shouldn't tell/force/encourage you to play one way or another. Playing single player or multiplayer should be by CHOICE based on preference, not based on rewards, content, bosses or benefits.

Sure, give people searching for online friends an open zone where they can admire each other's MTXs, party up, do maps and whatever. I don't care, good for them. But don't make any bosses, areas, content or items REQUIRE a party. Don't make the game say "to enjoy this, you HAVE to party up".

Currently, you party up if you WANT to party up, you don't party up because you indirectly "have to". I like that.

TLDR: Add ALL the MMO elements you want into PoE, as long as a party never has any benefits over solo play (more than it has today), and no content, items, bosses or rewards is multiplayer exclusive.

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ZenJelly wrote:

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shadopaw wrote:

Like really though.

I dont want to play a game that feels like work.

Then don't. If a game changes to the point you don't like it, find a new game.

I hate these kinds of responses.

The guy loves POE. It is obviously a game he wants to play. But, he sees it going in a direction that makes him not able to enjoy it. He is voicing this feeling.

How is your post even remotely productive?

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Phrazz wrote:

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wjameschan wrote:

I made it to act 6 before realising even my somewhat experienced organic attempt was doomed.

I'm getting dizzy by all of these alts, dude :P

I wrote a short essay here, but deleted it all to ask one question, because I need more context: Why was it doomed? Or why do you feel it was doomed? And what is an "organic attempt"?

Check that account's history. Second post I think. I also wrote a short essay. Lol. Preempts all your queries. It was meant to be incognito just to see if solid feedback regardless of username would get noticed. Spoiler: it did not.

I thought of another example too. D and D. There is one game where you HAVE to do some research and reading prior to play, but I don't imagine I would have kept at it had I, as a player, needed to read not only a player guide but also the DM's, which is sort of what PoE does. In other words, I really do feel PoE asks players to do too much both before and during "play" to be an inherently enjoyable experience. In lieu of enjoyment, it offers hard-won satisfaction, which is something most people find in far more meaningful ways than playing a computer game with a pretentious notion of 'difficulty'.

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I thought of another example too. D and D. There is one game where you HAVE to do some research and reading prior to play, but I don't imagine I would have kept at it had I, as a player, needed to read not only a player guide but also the DM's, which is sort of what PoE does. In other words, I really do feel PoE asks players to do too much both before and during "play" to be an inherently enjoyable experience. In lieu of enjoyment, it offers hard-won satisfaction, which is something most people find in far more meaningful ways than playing a computer game with a pretentious notion of 'difficulty'.

I really don't feel like you answered my question(s), but I forgive you.

"Difficulty" is as subjective as "fun". In video games, direct difficulty always comes down to two things; reaction or solving a puzzle, be that a puzzle based on math, language, logic or whatever. Most (if not all) other forms of "difficulty" in video games, have to do with game knowledge.

I've seen plenty of examples of people picking up PoE, and play through the story line without seeking external knowledge or tips, be that streamers or new guild members. Personally, I'm probably disqualified, as I know most things there is to know which can aid you in the acts of the game.

Look, I'm not saying PoE can't be more beginner friendly, because it absolutely can. Hell, it's probably the weakest area of the game. Sure, knowledge will help you, but if you actually use the in-game tools, the amount of external tools/sources of information you need, is none.

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Phrazz wrote:

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Foreverhappychan wrote:

I thought of another example too. D and D. There is one game where you HAVE to do some research and reading prior to play, but I don't imagine I would have kept at it had I, as a player, needed to read not only a player guide but also the DM's, which is sort of what PoE does. In other words, I really do feel PoE asks players to do too much both before and during "play" to be an inherently enjoyable experience. In lieu of enjoyment, it offers hard-won satisfaction, which is something most people find in far more meaningful ways than playing a computer game with a pretentious notion of 'difficulty'.

I really don't feel like you answered my question(s), but I forgive you.

"Difficulty" is as subjective as "fun". In video games, direct difficulty always comes down to two things; reaction or solving a puzzle, be that a puzzle based on math, language, logic or whatever. Most (if not all) other forms of "difficulty" in video games, have to do with game knowledge.

I've seen plenty of examples of people picking up PoE, and play through the story line without seeking external knowledge or tips, be that streamers or new guild members. Personally, I'm probably disqualified, as I know most things there is to know which can aid you in the acts of the game.

Look, I'm not saying PoE can't be more beginner friendly, because it absolutely can. Hell, it's probably the weakest area of the game. Sure, knowledge will help you, but if you actually use the in-game tools, the amount of external tools/sources of information you need, is none.

Read that. I promise it answers you. I do not want to promote it but you asked when I had already given about as good a response as I can.

As for the rest, we are agreeing at 45 degree angles.

Except that last bit. That isnt true at all. Something i addressed in my 3.18 write up as well. :)