Am I the only one who thinks that Path of Exile 2 is better than Diablo 4?

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Bleu42 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

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RitualMurder wrote:

regardless D4 will take a big chunk of this community away and probably make the league dropoffs even sharper once released.

just facts

"facts" when most people who playe PoE hate on Blizzard and anything they make. PoE playerbase is not interested in Diablo. Some people will go test it since its new and shiny and they will be back after a month nax.

Ehhhh sorry bud those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I hate on Blizzard all the time, but diablo has been THE best arpg I've played (speaking ofc of D1, D2, and D2R). Yea PoE is dope, but with every new league the problems of meaningless combat and bloat become more and more apparent.

D4 would have to be SUCH a shitshow to have me not wanting to play for a good while. It's absolutely possible, it's Blizzard of course. But what I think many people here are missing with D4 is it's a fresh start, a WHOLE new game. Even PoE2 can't do that.

I'm definitely part of the 'poe playerbase' that's interested in Diablo. And while we all know where the smart money is, I'm hoping D4 turns out very good.

I'm also defintely part of the "poe playerbase" that's interested in Diablo. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a ridiculous amount of people who are part of the "poe playerbase" and also interested in Diablo.

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Bleu42 wrote:

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Aynix wrote:

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RitualMurder wrote:

regardless D4 will take a big chunk of this community away and probably make the league dropoffs even sharper once released.

just facts

"facts" when most people who playe PoE hate on Blizzard and anything they make. PoE playerbase is not interested in Diablo. Some people will go test it since its new and shiny and they will be back after a month nax.

Ehhhh sorry bud those two things aren't mutually exclusive. I hate on Blizzard all the time, but diablo has been THE best arpg I've played (speaking ofc of D1, D2, and D2R). Yea PoE is dope, but with every new league the problems of meaningless combat and bloat become more and more apparent.

D4 would have to be SUCH a shitshow to have me not wanting to play for a good while. It's absolutely possible, it's Blizzard of course. But what I think many people here are missing with D4 is it's a fresh start, a WHOLE new game. Even PoE2 can't do that.

I'm definitely part of the 'poe playerbase' that's interested in Diablo. And while we all know where the smart money is, I'm hoping D4 turns out very good.

If you think D4 will be like Diablo 2, then better stop overdsoing on hopium. Its gonna be Diablo 3 with better graphics and some new elements like Open World.

Hell 90% of the GGG staff is probably interested in Diablo.

Path of Exile was created orginally because of Diablo.

Millions of arpg fans, including a massive crossover segment of PoE players and streamers, are interested in Diablo.

There is plenty of market space for both games (and players) to exist. Obviously Diablo will have more total players, but that doesnt mean PoE cant continue on with the thousands remaining.

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DeepAlchemist wrote:

I'm also defintely part of the "poe playerbase" that's interested in Diablo. I wouldn't be surprised if there's a ridiculous amount of people who are part of the "poe playerbase" and also interested in Diablo.

I'm also interested in Diablo. Diablo 1 and 2, mostly. I was interested in Diablo 3 until I tried it and found out it had no builds, no skill tree and no depth. Now? I'm interested in what Diablo 4 CAN be, which it most likely won't be. But interested? Yes, I do follow the development. And I do hope that it's good. But I'm pretty sure I won't be interested after it's released. Sadly.

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Phrazz wrote:

I was interested in Diablo 3 until I tried it and found out it had no builds, no skill tree and no depth.

Flat out, 100%, untrue.

If you look at Rhyker's season build tier lists(for example) you will see dozens of viable D3 builds, that all play and feel different. EVERY SEASON.

D3 was/is great. I know that somehow people here in the PoE forums get offended, but tbh, that's subjective opinion. If you dont like D3 fine, but dont make stuff up.

Also what "depth"? The crafting and rng? Needing 3rd party tools is now a selling feature? Doing the campaign, unlocking the atlas, and following a meta guide every 3 months is "depth"? (Howd that RF Inquisitor go btw? Such Depth.)

Also it costs nothing to sign up for the D4 closed beta. And it wont cost anything (presumably for the open beta, unless they tie that to pre-order). And lastly I think its wildly unfair to try and judge a game, even shortly after release, with the size and scope of a live service arpg. Can you imagine playing PoE for 20-40 hours and doing a review that meant anything?

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DarthSki44 wrote:

Flat out, 100%, untrue.

If you look at Rhyker's season build tier lists(for example) you will see dozens of viable D3 builds, that all play and feel different. EVERY SEASON.

D3 was/is great. I know that somehow people here in the PoE forums get offended, but tbh, that's subjective opinion. If you dont like D3 fine, but dont make stuff up.

Also what "depth"? The crafting and rng? Needing 3rd party tools is now a selling feature? Doing the campaign, unlocking the atlas, and following a meta guide every 3 months is "depth"? (Howd that RF Inquisitor go btw? Such Depth.)

Also it costs nothing to sign up for the D4 closed beta. And it wont cost anything (presumably for the open beta, unless they tie that to pre-order). And lastly I think its wildly unfair to try and judge a game, even shortly after release, with the size and scope of a live service arpg. Can you imagine playing PoE for 20-40 hours and doing a review that meant anything?

Damn, so defensive. Relax, take it easy.

What depth? Mostly a game where you can customize/specialize your character beyond "offense" and "defense". A skill tree/progression tree/customization tree, letting you separate the word "skill" from the word "build" - where you can utilize a certain skill as your main skill, but still build your build differently from others.

As long as this Ryhkker dude offers several varieties of one skill - as several different BUILDS, I can actually check it out, and maybe I'll understand what you are talking about. Because when I tried Diablo 3, it had no skill trees. It had no real way of separating your WW Barb from Jimmy's WW Barb. It had no way of deciding your outgoing damage other than "offense" and/or crit. It had no way of deciding how to mitigate/avoid incoming damage, other than "defense".

YES, I'll rather have a game that more or less needs third party tools to stay on top of the LATEST, most difficult parts of the game, than a game that removes this need, because it's dumbed down so much, that when you choose a skill to play, the game decides everything FOR you. Your SKILL is more or less your BUILD in Diablo 3. I do understand that Paragon levels gives you a certain hint of specializing your build, but is it more than crit and offense for damage? Is it more than health and defense?

Don't be so defensive next time. I'm not attacking you. You know as well as me that there are 30928573 Diablo 2 fans out there (like me) that were tremendously disappointed with Diablo 3 for different reasons, be that the lack of skill trees, the simplistic itemization or whatever.

Maybe I just define "build" different from you. I don't consider a "WW Barb" a build. That is a skill and a class. How you specialize those two with a game's progression system, is what a "build" is. And if you say that in Diablo 3, you can choose different way of choosing your output, your input, different offenses, different defenses and stuff like that from one WW Barb to another, I will keep my mouth solid shut about this in the future. I will SCREAM "I was wrong".

And regarding D4? I don't judge it. I said I hope it's good. I've said before that the paragon boards look promising. But when it comes to depth, I'm VERY ready to be disappointed. Is there anything wrong with that? Am I judging it? No, I'm more judging myself, because I know I probably want Diablo 4 to be more complex that it will be. I want choices beyond what class and skill to play. I want choices in what gear to wear. I want reasons to choose something over other things.

^

I suppose, (and perhaps a bit too full throated a defense of D3, especially here) my point was many of the complaints about D3, and interestingly the praise for PoE, are VERY subjective.

Sure you mentioned WW Barb. Which has a few options, I would equate with cyclone in PoE having also a few options (like with CoC. Is ice spear Coc really vastly different than arc Coc?).

But there are also Call of the Ancient Barbs, throw barbs, quake barbs, rend barbs, and more. You expand this scenario out over all the playable characters, and you get something over 50 or so builds (with some variations)

Anyways, I maintain that PoE really isn't all that deep when it comes down to it. There is some nuance to min/max, and the tooltip GGG provides... well it fucking sucks at telling you anything remotely helpful compared to PoB or Craft of Exile, or poedb. That's not depth, its user-hostile fake complexity imo.

I do think the meta build situation and dps outliers really are a problem generally speaking for PoE. Not that I think meta is a problem (for any game), because ultimately communities and players will find optimal builds, but because of how that impacts the gameplay and how GGG balances. All this does is further push folks into specific builds (or intentionally gimp themselves)

That's why you see so many Seismic Extinguate Trappers, RF Inquis, Skelly Mages, Boneshatter, Tornado Shot, and then... well it drops off quickly in comparison. (Or close to it)

It's really not as diverse as one might think given all the "options" available.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

It's really not as diverse as one might think given all the "options" available.

Depends on how you look at it - and I have NO(!) idea about the diversity in D3's rifts, when you get far down.

You mentioned Cyclone. CAN you do everything in the game with regular, physical, impale cyclone? Yes. Can you convert ALL your damage to fire, to change up your scaling, your available curses and auras? Yes. Can you do everything in the game with it? Yes, if you invest enough. What about cold? Sure. Lightning damage? Yeah. What about your defenses? Well, you CAN go hybrid evasion/armor, which is probably the strongest route these days. But you CAN also scale max res, block, spell suppression.

Can you do it with axes? Yes, and it opens up some rage possibilities. What about swords? Yes, very good for a combination between damage and crit. What about staffs? Sure, great combination of crit and block. Sword and board? Possible, too.

On top of all that, you mention CoC, with even more possibilities.

Now, CAN all of that work in the current META? Sure it CAN, if you are willing to invest. The game doesn't stop you. The game does provide the possibilities, even if some are smarter than others. Sure, the builds won't really play that different, even though some choices opens up the explosion route, others open up speed and so on. But they are still choices YOU make - from a variety of offered possibilities.

Again, I don't consider a class+skill a "build". A "build" is how YOU set your personal touch on those two choices (class+skill). And I feel that possibility lacks in Diablo 3.

Edit: I do agree that PoE is far from perfect, and has a long way to go when it comes to balance. But a lot of things CAN BE DONE, even if it's WAY more expensive than other options.

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Phrazz wrote:

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DarthSki44 wrote:

It's really not as diverse as one might think given all the "options" available.

Depends on how you look at it - and I have NO(!) idea about the diversity in D3's rifts, when you get far down.

You mentioned Cyclone. CAN you do everything in the game with regular, physical, impale cyclone? Yes. Can you convert ALL your damage to fire, to change up your scaling, your available curses and auras? Yes. Can you do everything in the game with it? Yes, if you invest enough. What about cold? Sure. Lightning damage? Yeah. What about your defenses? Well, you CAN go hybrid evasion/armor, which is probably the strongest route these days. But you CAN also scale max res, block, spell suppression.

Can you do it with axes? Yes, and it opens up some rage possibilities. What about swords? Yes, very good for a combination between damage and crit. What about staffs? Sure, great combination of crit and block. Sword and board? Possible, too.

On top of all that, you mention CoC, with even more possibilities.

Now, CAN all of that work in the current META? Sure it CAN, if you are willing to invest. The game doesn't stop you. The game does provide the possibilities, even if some are smarter than others. Sure, the builds won't really play that different, even though some choices opens up the explosion route, others open up speed and so on. But they are still choices YOU make - from a variety of offered possibilities.

Again, I don't consider a class+skill a "build". A "build" is how YOU set your personal touch on those two choices (class+skill). And I feel that possibility lacks in Diablo 3.

Edit: I do agree that PoE is far from perfect, and has a long way to go when it comes to balance. But a lot of things CAN BE DONE, even if it's WAY more expensive than other options.

I think perhaps that where the notion of "can you do it" vs "should you do it" gets a bit messy when comparing PoE and D3.

Can you make it to yellow maps with a Tabula and virtually any skill/build combo? Yeah. Is that a sucessful build? I dont know, you tell me. I guess so if you make it through the acts? But to me, in my opinion, that's not the measuring stick. Again subjective.

Comparitively can you do a GR 150 in D3 with a comparable gear starved character build? No.

But that really isnt the point then is it?It's more player experience and expectations which then gets super subjective opinion wise. That's what I'm getting at.

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DarthSki44 wrote:

I think perhaps that where the notion of "can you do it" vs "should you do it" gets a bit messy when comparing PoE and D3

Sure, but I rather have that freedom to do something you would call stupid.

In diablo 3, you choose a skill and a class, and after that, you have no real choices. Your path is more or less set. Your options in gear are more or less set. And that is of course deliberate, because it's very easy to understand, it's very easy to follow and it's very easy to 'master'. That's what I mean with no depth.

From ME, that's criticism. But I do understand that this is what people want. They are happy with choosing their skill and their class. Those are enough choices. They just want to slay monsters using that skill and that class. But that's not why I play ARPGs. I play them to build, customize, discover, try, fail, succeed. I NEED a game to have the possibility to fail, for me to feel like I've succeeded, even if it's just an illusion.

Diablo 2 had that possibility. You COULD spec your passive points in a REAL bad way, making your build more or less useless. It GAVE you the option to fail, which also gives you the option to succeed. Following a pre-destined, over-developed path, where everything is carefully balanced from A to Z, with almost no room for variance (because it would jeopardies the perfect balance) isn't "succeeding" in my eyes. It's being "handheld" in my eyes. It's not "ARPG", it's "APG". Again, in MY eyes.

Why am I going on and on about this? To make you understand why Diablo 3 was such a letdown for me. To make you understand HOW Diablo 3 is VERY different from Diablo 2. To make you see what I think of when I say "depth", and you ask "what depth?". To make you see HOW Diablo 3 scrapped their skill trees during development, possibly to ease the game down a bit, to cater to a larger audience.

And the chances of them totally changing this train of thought in Diablo 4 is small, I think. That's why I'm saying I will probably be disappointed in Diablo 4. Not because it will be "bad", but because I have too high hopes for what it COULD have been.