Domain of Timeless Conflict

There's a bit more nuance than that. There exists something between a bug and a feature: a hack. It does what you intended, but it's not pretty.

This falls pretty squarely into hack, imo. Prevents the exploit they were trying to prevent, but has some nasty side effects.

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AcrylicHercules wrote:

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FutureFear wrote:

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Aragorn14 wrote:

And again, this is NOT a bug. The fact that the thread was moved OUT of the bug section to here should have given you a clue that this is by design.

GGG has CLEARLY stated that this is how it works.

Doesn't matter that you think is weird behavior. Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks of the behavior. This is the way they designed it. Full stop.

If you want something changed, go post in the feedback section.

Just maybe... GGG doesn't understand that it's a bug. There are similar threads in the bug section talking about exactly the same thing happening to them, that weren't moved. So your argument doesn't really "matter."

It's not because they move something that it suddenly becomes something else. It's a game behavior that isn't consistent with other game mechanics in the game and creates a disadvantage for players as mentioned before.

If GGG has stated that it's intended, please point to the thread/place where they say so.

Also, it's not because something is designed in a certain way that it can't be designed wrong. I doubt any GGG developers said:
"hey let's make it so nothing drops from a boss and domain of the timeless conflict when no player is present in the area"

To any sane person, this is clearly a mistake; a coding error. Which btw is one of the exact definitions of "a bug."

But from some perspective you are right, it's definitely not an insect... aka a bug.

As a software developer, I can confirm that we can get pretty picky as to what is considered a "bug", and sometimes that's different from what a user/customer would consider a "bug".

To a developer, a "bug" is usually either:
- A feature that used to work correctly, but now doesn't
- A feature that's designed and expected to work one way, but actually does something else

What's explicitly not a "bug":
- A feature that works as designed, even though it was badly designed
- A feature that works as designed, even though the design is inconsistent with other similar features
- A feature that works as designed, even though some (or all) customers hate it

To an end-user, if the feature doesn't do what they think it should, then those distinctions above are irrelevant. They call it a "bug". I get it.

But sometimes what a user calls a "bug" is not what programmers call a "bug". It's a design decision.

This situation is a design decision; maybe it's bad, maybe it's not. But it won't be classified by the programmers as a "bug" because the code does what it was written to do. If you want it to change, provide some feedback, not a bug report.

Well, as a brother of an actual game developer with a master's degree(not at GGG) and myself with my own web design company, I feel pretty comfortable calling this a bug. He actually confirmed that this is most likely a bug as far as games go. He also was surprised they moved my thread. Even more surprised that GGG apparently sees this as "normal game behavior," just as much as I am.

It's also almost never the decision of the programmer to make it this way. It's the people above them that make "not the best decisions" for the game and lose players in the process because of it. (sometimes also great ideas)
GGG has seen this up close what "bad" decisions can do for their game and business.
As an entrepreneur myself, I can also confirm that I have the last word on what happens in my company. At the same time if I don't listen to my customers and their feedback I will lose them.

From the experience I had, as a player, it does seem like a strange behavior in the game. Getting no loot, even though completing the objective, just because of an "unlucky" timing of death and resurrection and not being present in the area.
From a player's perspective, this does look like an error in the code.

As a player, all I can do is report it. It's just sad GGG doesn't recognize the issue as a bug. Meanwhile, several other players might have lost their loot because of it.

I don't care that I lost my loot, it's only a game, but I wouldn't want it to happen to others or to myself again.

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Aragorn14 wrote:

And your argument holds 0 weight. How many times must you be told that this isn't a bug. How many times must you be told that GGG has stated, clearly, that this isn't a bug? Get it through your head. The only thing we can do is tell you what the facts are - we can't understand them for you.

Just because you want something to be a bug, oh so desperately for whatever reason, doesn't make it one.

Again, go whine about it in the feedback forum if you want something changed.

At least 1 more time. :)


It's fine by me that you think it's not a bug. I honestly don't care.

I'm still waiting on the thread or post where GGG stated that it's not a bug...?
At least it would bring me 1 step closer to hopefully getting this "bug" fixed. Or get correct confirmation, since I'm not going to believe some random stranger on the internet.

I think the whole point of reporting this as a "bug" in the first place, is to not make it a bug anymore... So believe me, I don't want it to be a "bug" anymore... I want it fixed.

If you would lose the entire loot drop from a 4-way domain of the timeless conflict... wouldn't you want that to be fixed?

Also, you are far from the person to tell me what I can or can't do on this forum. I believe that honor lies with the GGG's moderators and staff.
As far as I know, my comments aren't breaking any guidelines.
If any GGG mod or staff feels like this isn't the right place for this thread, they are welcome to move it again.

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Well, as a brother of an actual game developer with a master's degree (not at GGG) and myself with my own web design company, I feel pretty comfortable calling this a bug. He actually confirmed that this is most likely a bug as far as games go.

I actually lolled at this. Wow. Good for you for armchair diagnosing this.

Look, the reality is that GGG know about this and, for reasons we can only speculate about, have decided that their design decisions are a reasonable solution at least for now, and they do not classify this as a bug. Therefore, it's not a bug.

If I were to actually speculate (which I try not to do, second-guessing other developers on a codebase I don't have experience with) about what might go on in a discussion about the feature, I can easily imagine coming to the decision that the subroutine that calculates loot drops from a boss should only run if there are players in the instance to allocate the loot to. There may be many situations where, for efficiency's sake, subroutines like this are only conditionally run. Who knows what the downsides would be? We don't know. I bet GGG does, though.

You of all people, what with your own web design company and all, should understand that not everything users dislike should be considered bugs. Sometimes there are decisions made based on constraints that, without those constraints, we'd happily design differently. But, whatever, it is what it is. I've already spent way more time on this than I should have, lol.

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imanubcake wrote:

It happens in: uber elder, maven, sirus etc etc.
You die and click resurrect before loot has dropped you get no loot at all.

It is 100% intended and they've stated it previously.
They will not "fix" this

Edit: It's because there's nobody to apply the loot for so it just drops nothing.
Also comparing monsters moving to loot dropping is completely irrelevant

Think of it this way --- because there's no player, its using a 0 instead of the player's quantity/rarity.

I'm not quite sure what the literal math plays out like but I'm pretty sure that covers the basic concept.

Suffice it to say, whenever there's a timed event or scripted death sequence (like bosses) don't release if its about to die.

Even in MMOs like swtor during massive world raids on bosses we'd have to remind folks not to release if they were gonna go down (the boss) before the players could make it back close enough to get credit.

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AcrylicHercules wrote:

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Well, as a brother of an actual game developer with a master's degree (not at GGG) and myself with my own web design company, I feel pretty comfortable calling this a bug. He actually confirmed that this is most likely a bug as far as games go.

I actually lolled at this. Wow. Good for you for armchair diagnosing this.

Look, the reality is that GGG know about this and, for reasons we can only speculate about, have decided that their design decisions are a reasonable solution at least for now, and they do not classify this as a bug. Therefore, it's not a bug.

If I were to actually speculate (which I try not to do, second-guessing other developers on a codebase I don't have experience with) about what might go on in a discussion about the feature, I can easily imagine coming to the decision that the subroutine that calculates loot drops from a boss should only run if there are players in the instance to allocate the loot to. There may be many situations where, for efficiency's sake, subroutines like this are only conditionally run. Who knows what the downsides would be? We don't know. I bet GGG does, though.

You of all people, what with your own web design company and all, should understand that not everything users dislike should be considered bugs. Sometimes there are decisions made based on constraints that, without those constraints, we'd happily design differently. But, whatever, it is what it is. I've already spent way more time on this than I should have, lol.

It's nice that I made you laugh with the job of my brother and mine; even though it's the cold hard truth.

But yes you are right we can keep speculating what GGG actually thinks about it. Although I still haven't found or seen their actual statement about it. The only clue I have as a player is that they moved my thread. At the same time, other threads from other players are still in the bug section; with the same issue that's happening to them.

It's correct sometimes I have to educate my clients on why something works a certain way and not as they imagined it. Sometimes we are bound to the limitations of the tools we use.
That said though, I still strive to find a solution or look for different tools that might be able to solve the problem at hand first. Simply because unhappy clients make me unhappy as well. I actually value their input, because in the end, what I create, I create for them and their clients. Helping them, helps me achieve my goals and dreams; it's that simple.

It's sad to see that GGG lost that empathy with their player base. They are creating a game for themselves, not for their players (anymore).

It's kind of unpleasant to invest a lot of time and effort into achieving something in a game, and then get nothing in return for that time invested. Simply because of a "bad" game design/mechanic. Despite the reason why it's made this way... it's simply unethical from a player's point of view.

Would you be happy to play a game if you would lose an entire loot drop from a tough fight?
(like the domain of timeless conflict)

What frustrates me the most is knowing something like this can be fixed, but GGG not taking the time or effort to actually look at fixing it. Even more frustrating that they think it's not broken, while plenty of players tell them it is...

Without feedback from others, we would never know we made a mistake.

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FutureFear wrote:

Without feedback from others, we would never know we made a mistake.

If only there was a place for feedback.

If memory serves correctly this was done to prevent loot exploits in the past so for sure not a bug.

And after doing a little searching it seems to have been related to an exploit about keeping shaper influence on a map? Cant find a specific GGG post but this was the closest post from a user I could find.


"It was put in to prevent exploitation when you had to set up shaper and elder areas in the atlas. People figured out that if the map maker wasn't there, the people could repeat farm the bosses and get loot but the map maker never lost the influence progress in his atlas. So they made it so the map maker had to be present when loot dropped or no loot"

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DER_PSYCHOPATH wrote:

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FutureFear wrote:

Without feedback from others, we would never know we made a mistake.

If only there was a place for feedback.

I didn't move or place this thread here.
It originally was in the bug section.

I'm well aware of where the feedback section is, funny enough a few of the threads there are mine.

Sadly, most of the feedback is overlooked by GGG, since nothing has changed on the most common feedback posts they've got. So it makes me wonder if they even open and read the section at all.

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gladiatorpie wrote:

If memory serves correctly this was done to prevent loot exploits in the past so for sure not a bug.

And after doing a little searching it seems to have been related to an exploit about keeping shaper influence on a map? Cant find a specific GGG post but this was the closest post from a user I could find.


"It was put in to prevent exploitation when you had to set up shaper and elder areas in the atlas. People figured out that if the map maker wasn't there, the people could repeat farm the bosses and get loot but the map maker never lost the influence progress in his atlas. So they made it so the map maker had to be present when loot dropped or no loot"

So you're basically saying because of the atlas mechanic the game had 3 years ago; there doesn't drop loot in an area when you're not there...

Since influence works quite differently now, I guess they could reverse it without the risk of "repeat farming a boss."

Still, it's also sad to see the solution they came up with. I can understand it if they need a quick fix to avoid an exploit. However, 3 years later it has created the problem of people not getting loot after killing a boss or completing a timeless domain of conflict fight when they died and resurrect at an unfortunate timing.


Basically, GGG is saying:
It's not oke to get double/triple/quadruple loot and we don't care if you get no loot even when you defeat our end game content...