Convince me Stash tab "MTX" is not pay to win

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Mikrotherion wrote:

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LennyLen wrote:

Wow. I didn't realize this horse still even had a skeleton.

We're down to the idea of said horse.

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awesome999 wrote:

1. P2W = Pay for in-game advantages or benefits.
2. GGG sell stash tabs in POE
3. Stash tabs are in-game advantages

Conclusion: POE is P2W.

It is valid argument.

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If you don't understand that TIME SAVED = VALUE GAINED in the game's economy, you need to do things I won't do for you, like understand what the game is and how it works, etc.

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Draegnarrr wrote:

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awesome999 wrote:

1. P2W = Pay for in-game advantages or benefits.
2. GGG sell stash tabs in POE
3. Stash tabs are in-game advantages

Conclusion: POE is P2W.

It is valid argument.

No it isn't, you could flesh it out into a real argument but you won't because the niceties get in the way of the point you are attempting to leverage which is why nobody does it.

1. PoE is free
2. It has no objectives
3. I cannot win

Conclusion: PoE is not P2W

It is a valid argument..... /s

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JayceTheAce_ wrote:

Stash Tabs are not Pay to Win , this got many times Debunked that you dont need them at all .

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kuciol wrote:

I wouldnt bother with such long explanations. This dude can grasp a concept that at some point you are expected to buy a game and it doesnt make it p2w. It is f2p but nowhere it is stated that it would be convinient without paying a little.

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allionus wrote:

Let's just stick to using "ADVANTAGE" instead of the euphemism "CONVENIENT" - and then see how far that whole 'f2p defense' flies.

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Vennto wrote:

So, I won´t go over the whole thread reading 16 pages. But as far as I understand OP´s initial thought it boils down to this, correct me if I am wrong:

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If you don't understand that TIME SAVED = VALUE GAINED in the game's economy, you need to do things I won't do for you, like understand what the game is and how it works, etc.

So your argument of "P2W" derives from the idea that with stash tabs you safe time in a trade-environment, therefore being more effective than others when every other variable is the same, right?

1. Your whole economic argument falls short in every SSF-Environment. People buy stash tabs as well while not engaging in trade, for the pure convenience. If you argue that they are Pay2win and your argument is focussed on the trade-advantages of stash-tabs then it still only focusses on a part of the game.

2. The biggest flaw of the "p2w"-Argument has been mentioned once I think, I don´t recall an answer to it, maybe it helps if I frame and explain it in a different way:

Your argument sais "if every other variant is equal, stash tabs do XX". Well, that´s an argument from ignorance and could be done with literally anything, because whatever formula u put together, once you only have one variable and with the rest being held constant, it of course becomes the most relevant. That doesn´t speak to the relevance of it in general.

For economic success in SC Trade there are a lot of relevant factors, here´s which one I can come up with from the top of my head:

1. Time-investment
2. Game knowledge
3. Build-knowledge
4. Ability to adapt
5. Knowledge about PoB and how to effectively value character-performance
6. Mechanical skill
7. Knowledge about the trade-environment
8. Seeing market-opportunities and developments
9. Gameplay-Effectiveness
10. Use of 3rd game tools (awk. poe trade, chaos recipe enhancer, lab-compass...)
11. used hardware
12. risk-aversion vs. risk-affinity
13. Team vs. solo play

All of those variants, and for the sake of the argument add "14. stash tabs", play a relevant role when it comes to how much currency people can make. you can´t just ignore all that just to make a point. The question this begs is clearly how much do stash tabs really do?

And, you might be surprised, but I agree partly here, I woulnd´t miss them for the world. That is because of the way I farm though. I know in fact there are reliable, effective and very profitable farming strategies that do not require any stash tabs at all. For example guardian-maps into invitations into maven. Setting up a normal tab with 4 maps in a row, adding the invitation on it, most important drops are further mapsand the maven splinters, which do not require a stash tab at all. So you ALSO need to take into account the content people opt to interact with. Delve is another content you could probably do without any meaningful impact of stashtabs. If you farm tons of fragments, essences, general maps or simulacrum with content from literally any other league-mechanic then stashtab-organisation becomes far more valuable. By this point u have to realize this is getting a ghost-chase for any objective answer.

So falling back on my own experience: I bought my stash tabs (literally all of them) in my second league. Back then I made roughly 10ex over the course of a league. The following league I made 40, the following I made 200 and now I am making 1-3 mirrors per league, while shortening my time-investment by each league. Stash-tabs did not change, but my income increased, depending on the mirror-price, 50- to 100fold.

Pay2win for me is, not even taking it too literal, a tool that improves the performance I am able to do in a game by a meaningful amount in which others, who not use the same tools, have a hard time catching/keeping up. In PoE, this is not the case. All the other variables I mentioned above play a much more important role when it comes to currency-potential than the stash-tabs do. They do help, no doubt about it. But they are mostly convenience. If your argument for p2w is that everything that helps even in the tiniest margin, then you are right. Tey are p2w. If you however, like me, compare their influence to other variables that influence economic powergain, then it is by no means p2w. I´ve played other games where you literally collect game money to sell it for paysafe cards, as the RL-money-part had become so crucial to the further optimization of your character or your gear that you would fall behind without it. PoE by no means falls into the same category. Based on this fact I hardly can agree to a p2w-defitinion of stashtabs.