Is Flagellant's "Gain 7 Charges when you are Hit by an Enemy" flask mod OP?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

man you just aren't seeing it...it's fruitless. No idea how you can look at my examples and say they are the same as your analyses

I am not aware of having said that.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Saying a gladiator can survive bigger hits because they have higher block is just wrong.

I am not aware of having said anything wrong in regards to that either. Not sure what exactly you are trying to say here though.

lets go back to the VERY beginning.

Your words:
Gladiator takes effective expected damage: hit_damage * 0.2 - 4%life
=> Gladiator is better vs big hits and Pathfinder is better vs small hits.
Gladiator can expected-sustain life if the average hit size is smaller than 20% life.
Gladiator version is much better vs oneshot.

Every single one of these lines is NOT TRUE. You are making conclusions on thin air.

BECAUSE BLOCK IS NOT MITIGATION.

Lets take it apart from the bottom up: Gladiator is NOT any better vs oneshots. One-shots deal with a certain damage #. Block is either 0% damage or 100% damage. No effect on one shots because you take the FULL DAMAGE no matter what. Your "expected damage" analysis is not how block works. Just because you have higher block doesn't mean you take x% less damage EVER.

Your analysis of Gladiator sustain is again faulty, because you are using hit DAMAGE in your equation. The 80% block does not change the hit damage, so you can't set a relationship between the two like you do in your equation. They are not connected. The equation should be more like this:
(# of hits) x .2 - 4%life = ehp, where the variable is ehp, NOT hit damage. This is the difference between mitigation and avoidance which you seem to adamantly refuse to see!

Finally, I literally quoted your post word for word. How can you come back and then say you aren't aware of having said that? It's a direct quote from you! Comments like that make me wonder if you are trolling at this point...

Go into PoB, load ANY CHARACTER. Create a flask that gives +75% spell and attack block. Check your ehp calculation for MAXIMUM HIT TAKEN with and without the flask. Does it change? No...it does not.

Because...block does NOT directly interact with hit damage!

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Lets take it apart from the bottom up: Gladiator is NOT any better vs oneshots. One-shots deal with a certain damage #. Block is either 0% damage or 100% damage. No effect on one shots because you take the FULL DAMAGE no matter what.

Obviously with "one shot" I meant "incoming hit damage is >= life".

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Your "expected damage" analysis is not how block works.

Again: The "expected" is a mathematical term. If you want to understand what this means - look it up.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Your analysis of Gladiator sustain is again faulty, because you are using hit DAMAGE in your equation. The 80% block does not change the hit damage, so you can't set a relationship between the two like you do in your equation. They are not connected. The equation should be more like this:
(# of hits) x .2 - 4%life = ehp, where the variable is ehp, NOT hit damage.

I dont know what you are trying to say here.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Finally, I literally quoted your post word for word. How can you come back and then say you aren't aware of having said that? It's a direct quote from you!

I didnt see you quoting me in that post at all. Which "literal word for word direct" quote are you referring to?

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Go into PoB, load ANY CHARACTER. Create a flask that gives +75% spell and attack block. Check your ehp calculation for MAXIMUM HIT TAKEN with and without the flask. Does it change? No...it does not.

Its quite possible that my usage of certain terms is not how they are typically used in contemporary PoE or PoB. That however does not invalidate my math.

it DOES invalidate your math...PoB DOES THE MATH. It is a calculator that has ALL the algorithms and equations already proofed and checked through years of testing and updates from people far smarter than either of us. It specifically has an equation for exactly what you are trying to describe and it invalidates your entire mathematical equation.

I know very well what an "expected value" is. I also know that if you are looking for an expected value, you first need to have a valid equation leading to that expectation, which you do not lol.

Look, at the end of the day it doesn't really matter so lets leave it here for now :)

Also...none of this has any relation to your original post

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jsuslak313 wrote:

people far smarter than either of us.

I rather doubt that...

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jsuslak313 wrote:

It specifically has an equation for exactly what you are trying to describe and it invalidates your entire mathematical equation.

My impression is that you dont (or dont want to) understand what I am describing.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

Also...none of this has any relation to your original post

Actually the point of my math posts was to add one simplistic math perspective to the potential issue/s in my original post.

In the qualitative additions part of the simplistic math comparison I missed some things:
- Divine Shield: Taking less damage (that would be the Gladiator) is much better.
- Manually used Guard Skills: Taking less damage is much better for buffer type Guard skills like Molten Shell. Thats also the Gladiator.
- cwdt-Triggered Immortal Call (without effectively losing Endurance charges): Pathfinder is better due to it triggering more often so more uptime
- other cwdt-Triggered Guard Skills: Depends. Taking more damage can help with uptime or hurt uptime. Better uptime can mean better one-shot protection.

Some more which I didnt know before and some of which is new anyway: The game has a number of anti flask mechanics which mess with this. Such as (probably incomplete list):
- An Eldritch minion altar mod preventing the gaining of flask charges IIRC. Edit: The boss gets a mod preventing the player from getting charges after being hit.
- Maraketh Legion boss has some flask draining thing I think.
- Map mod 'reduced flask charges gained'.
- Archnemesis Drought Bringer. There is also 'Executioner' which has negativ impact on recovery-reliant builds.

its not op its just usable
like determination

lets remove determination? no? then leave the flasks mod alone too.

it is incredible how well trained people got by the devs nerfhammer of oblivion in here, literally anything actually nice and dependable that doesnt have obnoxious time cost to farm up and buy or obnoxious opportunity cost is considered OP right out the gate

Definitely OP considering their flask rework its honestly stupid, it would have been a used and popular mod even prior to the flask rework.

Oh lets cut charge generation to 25% of current but then add a mod that fills it back up if you run anywhere on screen :p

Its got some fun interactions though so no idea what to do with it, I just know it doesn't fit with how they reworked flasks.

Update: I have played a Pathfinder in SSFHC with the Flagellant + Master Surgeon combination (less than 30% though) and I cant really answer my own question. The build is definitely strong defensively but not immortal. I had a - RIPed - similar but incomplete Deadeye build before in this league. There are a few things the Pathfinder version is much safer but thats about it. Like facetanking Boss Harbingers or Delve spams. But my guess is that even the Deadeye version in completed form could have done that - it had extra defensive layers which the Pathfinder doesnt have. I tested the (incomplete) Deadeye in 'Gift of the Goddess' (lvl 83 area with 100% increased monster damage): I collected a few groups of monsters and "AFKed" inside of them. This turned out to be safe - no danger of losing significant amount of life. The advantage of the Pathfinder Master Surgeon is that there is a conceptual safety. I am not sure it works 100% reliably though. There have been a few cases of me taking heavy damage that I thought indicated it not working 100% reliably against all hostile damage. It may have to do with monster death effects or monster being dead and monster skill still doing damage - but thats pure speculation - I didnt systematically investigate this.

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Bosscannon wrote:

its not op its just usable
like determination

lets remove determination? no? then leave the flasks mod alone too.

it is incredible how well trained people got by the devs nerfhammer of oblivion in here, literally anything actually nice and dependable that doesnt have obnoxious time cost to farm up and buy or obnoxious opportunity cost is considered OP right out the gate

Well it does have a huge "opportunity cost" if you have access to Mageblood though.