Is Flagellant's "Gain 7 Charges when you are Hit by an Enemy" flask mod OP?

Yep Pathfinder Immortal cause life on getting hit.

Thats why every HC Event was won by a Pathfinder... oh wait...


Its good. Not more. And you have to invest in it to make it work properly.

Simple low gear cost math example to maybe shine some light onto the question:
Compare Gladiator with 5 Flagellant flasks with Pathfinder with 5 Flagellant flasks.
Both use a Shield with 25% chance to block & spell block (with Tempest Shield).
Gladiator shield also has 5% life on block.
Gladiator has 85% attack block & 75% spell block. I am simplifiying this to 80% block.

Cost Pathfinder:
- Needs Ascendancy points.
- Needs enough increased charges gained & reduced charges used.
Cost Gladiator:
- Needs Ascendancy points.
- Needs enough block & spell block
- Needs to use a shield with the 5% life on block mod.

Effect - but consider limitations further down - Spoiler for details:

Result:
So if incoming average hit size is smaller than 20% of life then both work without any other form of recovery.
If the size of incoming hits is between 20% and 47% of life then Pathfinder version is better.
If the size of incoming hits is greater than 47% of life then Gladiator version is better.

Some (not considered in the math) advantages of the Pathfinder version:
- Pathfinder version is more reliable.
- Pathfinder version works vs secondary damage also.
- Pathfinder doesnt really need the Shield nor the Tempest Shield.

Some (not considered in the math) advantages of the Gladiator version:
- Gladiator version is much better vs oneshot.
- Gladiator can use more expensive flasks without compromising the recovery.
- Pathfinder is more reliant on getting sufficient Flagellant flask tier so flask rolling is cheaper for Gladiator.
- Gladiator is better with counter attacks which may add to life recovery.

Also not considered:
- Scion version.
- Lower cost versions like only getting life on every other hit for Pathfinder or not maxing spell block for Gladiator.
- (lots of other stuff obviously)

Exactly. Thanks thats a good Post.

U could also compare it to champ fortify, slayer overleech, inquis regen and so on then it becomes obvious pretty fast that Pathfinder is definitely not OP.

Comparing the costs:
- This is inevitably going to be also somewhat simplistic.
- I use a "point" system here with the value of 1 point ~= 5% increased maximum life. So 1 point is a bit weaker than 1 passive point.
- I am not considering the necessity to branch to the respective nodes on the passive tree. Obviously this is at least somewhat limiting for builds.
The Gladiator version is probably much more costly here but I didnt try to make an actual build.
- The costs to compare here listed above were - see Spoiler:


Comparing the costs: Pathfinder
- I am assuming the Pathfinder is a non-crit build. For crit build its cheaper - 'Careful Conservationist' gives 20% increased charges gained and 'Master Surgeon' may add something too.
- Natures Adrenaline is on the weak side but Pathfinders usually take it anyway because of lack of better options.
Master Surgeons other benefits are weak unless maybe if the anti-bleed is used in conjunction with Flagellants (assuming it works which I dont know)
Somewhat arbitrarily I would say that the Ascendancy cost is at least 4 points. If using an anti-bleed-anti-corrupted-bleed flask the cost is at least 6 points.
- Its necessary to turn 7 charges into 20 charges per "increased charges gained" and "reduced charges used".
What exactly is the cheapest way to achieve that depends probably on build/pathing.
I am arbitrarily assuming the use of 30% reduced charges and 100% increased flask charges gained. (Not 100% sure this works.)
So instead of 5% life on block shield mod Pathfinder needs the 20% reduced charges used belt mod.
Pathfinder has 10% increased charges gained on Ascendancy. I am counting that as 0.5 points.
'Spiked Concoction' cluster notable gives 20% increased charges gained and 10% increased effect of flasks + 5%ias/ics. The rest is so good that I only count these 20% as costing 0.5 points.
'Careful Conservationist' give the missing 10% reduced and 20% increased charges gained. This costs at least 3 passives but also gives 5% increased flask effect. I am counting this as 3 points cost.
For the remaining 50% there are various sources like 'Fasting' cluster notable. The cost is maybe 6.5 points for 50%.
=> So the summary cost (without belt mod) is 4..6 + 0.5 + 0.5 + 3 + 6.5 = 14.5 or 16.5 points

Comparing the costs: Gladiator
- I am assuming this is an attack build wielding a sword. This is much more limiting than the Pathfinder version.
But for the extra cost of 2.5 points the sword limitation can be scrapped.
- Reigning Veteran gives 850 armour & 850 evasion. Thats maybe 1.5 points short for an average Ascendancy node.
- Painforged looks ok for an Ascendancy node so no penalty for having to take it.
- Gladiator also needs the 5% life on block shield mod, Pathfinder the 20% reduced charges used belt mod instead.
- Gladiator needs 50% spell block and 60% block.
- I am assuming a cost of 4% (spell or attack) block per point - see Spoiler.

The "free" block on passives makes for 20% block - see Spoiler above.
Ascendancy gives 14% attack block. I am counting this as 2.5 points.
- This leaves 76% remaining block. This costs thus 19 points.
=> So the summary cost (without shield mod) is 1.5 + 2.5 + 19 = 23 points

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Vepa wrote:

Exactly. Thanks thats a good Post.

U could also compare it to champ fortify, slayer overleech, inquis regen and so on then it becomes obvious pretty fast that Pathfinder is definitely not OP.

Whether its OP or not also has to do with the costs - see above in this post. If you think I made some mistakes or misrepresent some things feel free to point it out.

No. I unironically think it is a good post and the comparison is as fair as it gets.

I know it is about the investment. I even posted that ;-)


I dont really have much to add. I think the 6 Ascendancy Points to get it really going even for Bossfights is a heavy investment.
Master Surgeon is mandatory cause thats where the life recovery comes from.
U can leave it at that but u will probably run out of flask charges at bosses rendering the defense mechanism useless. So you need Natures Boon alongside to have the recovery and perma flask defensive complete.

The thing is there is not very much u get alongside that. Attackspeed/Movespeed/Flaskeffect/reduced Ele dmg taken. It is not bad and the recovery then is really good but there are many Ascendancys who get better defense for less investment and Gladiator nowadays is even on the lower End of that.

i did play hiltless viper strike pathfinder i can definitely say not something super impressive. mapping is mediocre, but scourge was even more awful. bossing is good, but also kind of depends on bosses - you got to stick to the boss to benefit. need life flask for sirus for sure. also poisons take a lot of time to settle in - 10-12sec doesn`t feel that great even if pob shows 10-12mil.(it can go up to 18-20mil with some more investment... manly just awakened gems, no need for multistrike version.) most bosses are ok and you can easy get flask shock, poison immune for hunter and other lightning conqueror.

it was a fun experience, is what i can say, having lesser version of vaal pact + mage blood combined.

only two drawbacks are mediocre mapping and poisons taking a bit too much time to settle on bosses. it can be good for new league since it looks like more of a bossing league, the league mechanic itself too - from what i see will be fighting one buffed enemy. another lesser drawback is no more scourge, so cant go for something like 550pdps hiltless, but you can get a 500-520 decent rolled one with 30qual beast. weapon itself would probably be cheap even six link, just need to roll some divines on it. other two cheap uniques i used were belly of the beast and ungil`s harmony. you can replace belly later with a better chest but for early league is super good(no need for six link, a regular 5 one for totems would be fine) ungil amulet you can also switch a bit later on once you decide to go for perfect agony(its one of the best dps boosts once you invest a bit into the character) belt was sort of cheap - just life, flask charges gained and some resist, helmet`s 30% incr viper strike duration is the best dps boost. ring with despair on hit and also im running determination, grace, malevolence and precision.(lvl3 enlighten + sovereignty on amulet, but you can miss one of the big auras until you get some cash to run them all) initial investment was something like 5ex up to 10-15ex with all the awakened gems and jewels, better items and so on.never did influence poison mods and expensive crafting, however i saw one of the new implicit currency mods giving chaos dot multi so if orbs not too expensive you can easy upg regular gear with that for more bang.

yeah, another drawback is no more threshold jewel which gives a lot of easy dps.(you can get unholy might by other means but it was so comfortable getting it from jewel on top of dps and possibly corrupted blood immune)

Hiltless is a different beast. Cant say much about that cause i havent played it.

I played TR and Poisonous Concoction PF and got the Charge on Hit + Master Surgeon Setup for both.

It is good when it is completely Set up but u kinda need to play a skill with it that doesnt need much scaling cause u get very little dmg from your Ascendancy.

@Zrevnur, your math doesn't really make much sense. Block is a source of avoidance, not mitigation. How can you use block as a metric for expected hit damage in any equation? It's either all or nothing.

If I'm missing some explanation you have somewhere, please correct me!

But for all intents and purposes, Block has absolutely NOTHING to do with actual "tankiness", regardless of how much life on block you have.

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jsuslak313 wrote:

@Zrevnur, your math doesn't really make much sense. Block is a source of avoidance, not mitigation. How can you use block as a metric for expected hit damage in any equation? It's either all or nothing.

If I'm missing some explanation you have somewhere, please correct me!

The math isnt about the effect of a single hit but rather how it averages out. And if you ignore the un/reliability aspect (and various other things - see above) then from that perspective a life-on-block (Gladiator but works for other Ascendancies too) build is quite similar to a life-when-hit Pathfinder.

Simple example with 80% block Gladiator with 5% life-on-block shield:
You get hit 10 times and block 8 of these.
Due to these 8 blocks you take only 20% of the cumulative damage.
Due to these 8 blocks you recover 8*5% = 40% of life.
So the end result is 20% of incoming damage taken and 40% of life recovered.

Compare this with simple Pathfinder example with 0% block and 30% life recovered upon being hit:
You get hit 10 times and block 0 of these and thus take 100% of incoming damage.
Due to Pathfinder thing you recover 10*30% = 300% of life.
So the end result is 100% of incoming damage taken and 300% of life recovered.

but @zrevnur, that post does NOT match what you said in your previous post...you were talking about Gladiator being able to tank bigger hits. That is simply not true. Gladiator tanks precisely the SAME damage as the Pathfinder because block is not mitigation.

Averages don't matter when it comes to single hits. Averages only matter when mapping and you are taking tons of smaller hits.

Your assessment of taking "20% cumulative damage" is an incorrect way of thinking about it...because it is NOT mitigation you cannot say cumulative anything, you have to talk about cumulative HITS. Damage is separate.

Ex: you are taking 10 hits of 15000 damage. you block 8 of them and get hit on the 9th, you are still dead. You aren't taking 20% cumulative, you are taking 0% 8 times and then 100%. Cumulative damage reduction is a function of MITIGATION.