Perma-Stun when CI

Like I said Desync is the biggest enemy at this point.
Although I must ask how on earth is using Life Leech invalidate me from tanking?

Say in WoW where a raid boss would take 99% of a tanks hp in one hit every second or so and healers kept him alive, is that not tanking either then?

Yeah, my tanking requires me to actively do dmg ... so what, it's still tanking.
You might aswell say twin totem builds are the only dmg dealers since they can afk kill stuff, while I need to hold down the cast button.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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Eldaire wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Even high level CI's will have issues, mainly the fact that you're going to be extremely squishy to any form of physical attack because you almost certainly have crappy armor/evasion and very little regen.

Your best defense is just to run around like a monkey and not get hit.

Not at all, Life Leech + Ghost Reaver along with tons of Dps/high crit chance/crit multiplier means that I can facetank just about anything. Everything infront of me gets permafrozen and I get 7% of all the aoe dmg back as ES. ES regen is complitely neglected and I have zero issues surviving aside from Desync. I have died 2 times since level 80 and both have been because of Desync.

So in a way, it is funny for you to say high level CI's will have issues, when I am one and I don't. Mid level ones on the other hand ...

Yes, you're fine with ghost reaver + life leech. But it's not really tanking if you're actively doing things to help regen your life. That's like saying you're tanking if you're hitting potions. With good high life builds, you can sit next to Piety and AFK. Good luck with that as a CI.

There's been plenty of cases where CI's, even high level CI's, have died to lag/desync/portaling in because they almost always have no armor and thus take almost full damage from any amount of physical attack. The fact that you can stay alive with LL + GR + VP means nothing if you got disconnected and aren't leeching.

What are u talking about? :D That means that all melee who are able to hit stuff while leeching life, aren't tanking either then? GR + LL (not VP) allows me to generate more life back than i get hit for, wich allows me to do exactly the same as any armorbased char with BM and life leech.
You're not talking about tankin, you're talking about passive damage mitigation and it is a completely different ballgame.

Desyncs have nothing with this topic to do, so leave those aside.

The point is that you're not doing anything with a GR+LL build that a high HP build can't be doing (save if you trek all the way to Vaal Pact, but technically there's nothing preventing a life-based build from doing the same thing).

On the other hand, a life based tank would be far better at it since they have higher armor, more/instant regen, and can still leech life. Not to mention they can probably cast longer than you can as a CI since they can use BM or EB and you obviously cannot.

It's funny how people claim that spending additional points to do the same thing in inferior fashion is somehow justification that it's better.

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As it stands right now, unless you run chayula and/or dream fragments, your CI's survivability is simply inferior to high life builds. And if your run chayula and dream fragrments, you're covering up the mechanical weaknesses of your character with items that are both counterintuitive to gameplay. There's no reason why someone should think of taking health nodes or running niche uniques in order to make a CI. It's like needing to grab accuracy or crit nodes even if you went resolute technique.

this x 195710715702

this is a good way of putting it that i didnt say in my OP.

really nothing more to say besides that, and i hope a mod or someone takes notice of this post and takes some of these suggestions into consideration.

as it stands right now, i run life leech with GR, really doesnt help when i cant do damage in order to leech ES when im stunned. half the time i dont even run LL because im FINE unless it comes to archers, mervels chosen, or flicker strike......in whioch case im dead anyways. id rather run my 15% IIR instead to try and atleast have a couple orbs or maybe a map drop......cause god knows maps dont drop as it is

and for the guy thats already about to get banned, whos on probation mind you, that wanted to come in and troll the thread said about not getting surrounded........you must not have played this game much, or gotten too far if you havent ran into packs that were designed to swarm you from all directions, or appear around you (blood elementals i think they are called) which instantly freeze you 10 times, or multi projectile snakes, or the huge packs in docks that, as i said before, consist of 20 archers and 20 melee coming from all directions. the only option is to run to the closest archers and start picking away at the ones you can while you have a speed flask popped hoping you dont get hit by an arrow in the process......all while the melee is surrounding you


that being said, im glad this thread has sparked a few peoples interest and grown this fast. hopefully more people can contribute their experiences here as well

one more thing......im gonna shelf my CI witch for now. this makes the second witch (one level 75, the other 77) im abandoning due to this stun mechanic, and going templar with life........got a friend interested in the game so i guess ill start anew with him tomorrow.

as it stands right now, again, CI is only going to be a headache and its not worth it.

another suggestion, make the new ES nodes branching out from CI include stun block and recovery similar to how the shadow tree ES nodes near Nullification have 2 affixes (?) per node, plus 4 on the last Nullification passive......all the witch tree gets is simple ES nodes, why not include the stun block there?

so thats 3 suggestions i have for making this better for CI players

1. make ES work the same way as life does if taking CI

2. give us a radius and make that 50% scale based off how many mobs are in our area, say 15-20% per??? with the already in place 50% for single target

3. give the ES nodes after CI stun block and recovery affixes or something similar to how the shadow tree ES nodes work.

see you guys tomorrow

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UnderOmerta wrote:

The point is that you're not doing anything with a GR+LL build that a high HP build can't be doing (save if you trek all the way to Vaal Pact, but technically there's nothing preventing a life-based build from doing the same thing).

On the other hand, a life based tank would be far better at it since they have higher armor, more/instant regen, and can still leech life. Not to mention they can probably cast longer than you can as a CI since they can use BM or EB and you obviously cannot.

It's funny how people claim that spending additional points to do the same thing in inferior fashion is somehow justification that it's better.

Then...don't...take...CI...
If life can do whatever ES can, if you on top of that don't have stuns with life, why try are you trying so hard in proving how "bad" CI is? just take life and be done with it? stupid mechanic? sure, have that opinion, it's your right to.

I have NEVER said that ES is "better" than life, just that it's different and SHOULD be different..and it isn't gonna be different if it's treated as life.

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Gahrlaag wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

The point is that you're not doing anything with a GR+LL build that a high HP build can't be doing (save if you trek all the way to Vaal Pact, but technically there's nothing preventing a life-based build from doing the same thing).

On the other hand, a life based tank would be far better at it since they have higher armor, more/instant regen, and can still leech life. Not to mention they can probably cast longer than you can as a CI since they can use BM or EB and you obviously cannot.

It's funny how people claim that spending additional points to do the same thing in inferior fashion is somehow justification that it's better.

Then...don't...take...CI...
If life can do whatever ES can, if you on top of that don't have stuns with life, why try are you trying so hard in proving how "bad" CI is? just take life and be done with it? stupid mechanic? sure, have that opinion, it's your right to.

I have NEVER said that ES is "better" than life, just that it's different and SHOULD be different..and it isn't gonna be different if it's treated as life.

Again, if I find a build spec to be inferior to counterparts, the point of having a 'feedback' forum is that you raise this issue and brainstorm ideas. If you don't like it then, in your style, don't...post...in...the...thread...

As I said, it's fairly simple to get ~40% chaos res and >5k life, and upwards of 10k life with Kaom's. Those builds are going to be far, far better tanks than your CI build. Is that intended? Sure. That's fine if the developers never intended for CI's to be tanks. But the fact that CI's either need to get otherwise useless life nodes, run bad uniques, or watch their health get wittled down whenever they're chain frozen or stunlocked is a pretty bad and unfair mechanic as it currently stands.

And if people find a mechanic unfair, they post their opinion. In the feedback forum. Seems legit to me.

CI by itself never designed around staying surrounded by pack of 20 melee mobs and 20 ranged mobs, initially. If your build poor at kiting separating or you lack uniques to overcome innate weaknesses of your game play and CI.
I'd say 20% more ES node after CI seemsrequied and below borderline effective,(I'D go 30%), but still at least it can be tested and checked weather it is the case.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Again, if I find a build spec to be inferior to counterparts, the point of having a 'feedback' forum is that you raise this issue and brainstorm ideas. If you don't like it then, in your style, don't...post...in...the...thread...

As I said, it's fairly simple to get ~40% chaos res and >5k life, and upwards of 10k life with Kaom's. Those builds are going to be far, far better tanks than your CI build. Is that intended? Sure. That's fine if the developers never intended for CI's to be tanks. But the fact that CI's either need to get otherwise useless life nodes, run bad uniques, or watch their health get wittled down whenever they're chain frozen or stunlocked is a pretty bad and unfair mechanic as it currently stands.

And if people find a mechanic unfair, they post their opinion. In the feedback forum. Seems legit to me.

You're saying that life is better than ES, and that CI should be changed to the same mechanics as having life! that's requesting to change the whole mechanic of CI..since it ISN'T life! heck, they even keep the lifebar to remind you that you HAVE life.

YES, that IS inteded, that's the whole point! IT IS a niche build, not something everyone's supposed to take due to the REQUIREMENTS to get it to work! That chaos immunity has a cost, and it should have. And as you stated yourself, a meelechar that has life and armor and all of that crap, will make a better tank..a ranged might not..hence the chaos immunity..
You can tank that, we "can't", so instead of us investing heavily in chaosres-gear, we take CI (assumptions ofc).

Unfair to who? i'm CI, and i have NO problem whatsoever with the mechanics, because i'm OK with giving up my ammyslot to not die of stunlock, i'm completely fine with having a 4 stat ring instead of some epic 10+ exalted beast. People who take life instead like that, cause they can run 5 or so auras, should i be complaining about those? that we can't take BM?

IT IS supposed to be "unfair", as it is built that way, and you can give as much feedback as you like, but as i said, saying that something is broken according to you, and then giving feedback on that perception might float if the common view is that it's broken, but that's not the common view..

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Gahrlaag wrote:

You're saying that life is better than ES, and that CI should be changed to the same mechanics as having life! that's requesting to change the whole mechanic of CI..since it ISN'T life! heck, they even keep the lifebar to remind you that you HAVE life.

YES, that IS inteded, that's the whole point! IT IS a niche build, not something everyone's supposed to take due to the REQUIREMENTS to get it to work! That chaos immunity has a cost, and it should have. And as you stated yourself, a meelechar that has life and armor and all of that crap, will make a better tank..a ranged might not..hence the chaos immunity..
You can tank that, we "can't", so instead of us investing heavily in chaosres-gear, we take CI (assumptions ofc).

Unfair to who? i'm CI, and i have NO problem whatsoever with the mechanics, because i'm OK with giving up my ammyslot to not die of stunlock, i'm completely fine with having a 4 stat ring instead of some epic 10+ exalted beast. People who take life instead like that, cause they can run 5 or so auras, should i be complaining about those? that we can't take BM?

IT IS supposed to be "unfair", as it is built that way, and you can give as much feedback as you like, but as i said, saying that something is broken according to you, and then giving feedback on that perception might float if the common view is that it's broken, but that's not the common view..

Again, your post is not making logical sense.

"CI has a drawback." Yes it does. Its drawback is that it makes your life 1. If that isn't a big enough drawback, then you need to add in other explicit drawbacks. The fact that you have a mechanic that isn't listed in the keystone itself that makes it practically unusable outside of devoting two important item slots to otherwise useless gear is NOT a drawback. That's a bottleneck. It's an unintuitive mechanic that outright prevents people from using the build.

Every other keystone has clearly outlined benefits and drawbacks. BM makes it so you use your health pool for skills, but your mana becomes 0. Resolute Technique makes it so you can never miss, but you can't crit. Acrobatics makes it so you have no armor or ES, but you can dodge attacks. All of those are keystones that give a benefit and a clearly defined drawback.

None of them say, "you can do this, but you can't do this. Oh, and by the way, you need to run these shitty items or else you're dead. Harhar."

As for your anecdotal case of running a CI and devoting your amulet and ring, well I do too. I play a CI and I run chayula and dream fragments from time to time. Doesn't mean that I want to have to. Especially when CI's drawback was already paid by making my life 1 point.

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Raelys wrote:

so thats 3 suggestions i have for making this better for CI players

1. make ES work the same way as life does if taking CI

2. give us a radius and make that 50% scale based off how many mobs are in our area, say 15-20% per??? with the already in place 50% for single target

3. give the ES nodes after CI stun block and recovery affixes or something similar to how the shadow tree ES nodes work.

4. Add some passives with "+[10-20]% of ES used to avoid damage ailments" in the tree (=> it is not as easy as a "ES=Life in regard to stun"-solution.. but you have other options than the known uniques)