Perma-Stun when CI

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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Gahrlaag wrote:

And that's been stated over and over again...
That's also why i've been saying that IF you don't want to take "niche" uniques or get health nodes..why are you taking CI?
And if you, despite this information TAKE CI but decide to go against the mechanics of it and end up being permastunned or frozen or whatever...why QQ??

Because the whole point of this forum is to give "feedback." The feedback has repeatedly been that it's counterintuitive, if not outright stupid, to need to take life nodes even if you go CI, or run specific uniques that contribute nothing except to cover over issues brought about by counterintuitive gameplay.

If CI and high life builds already have equal trade-offs (as I've outlined above) and pros/cons even assuming CI doesn't have stun/status issues, then why should CIs have stun/status issues on top of it all?

I understand and fully support the whole feedback-part..
But saying something is stupid or broken, when it in fact works as intended, is not feedback..
What the whole point of all these CI threads is, is to change the way CI works so that you DON'T have to stack life, DON'T have to wear uniques..
Now, if you take a look generally at how GGG builds makes skills, uniques etc..you'll see a red thread..get some, loose some.
You never miss, but you can't crit. Immune to chaos but 1 life etc etc..
It's an inteded "drawback" wich can be countered, in more than 1 ways..but that's not comfortable enough, because you'll have to give upp an ammy slot, a ring slot, some flask mods etc etc..and in the end THIS is what it's all about.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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Eldaire wrote:

Your best defense is just to get ghost reaver and life leech and don't worry about getting hit..and if you do, there's granites for it.

fixed it for ya

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Gahrlaag wrote:

I understand and fully support the whole feedback-part..
But saying something is stupid or broken, when it in fact works as intended, is not feedback..
What the whole point of all these CI threads is, is to change the way CI works so that you DON'T have to stack life, DON'T have to wear uniques..
Now, if you take a look generally at how GGG builds makes skills, uniques etc..you'll see a red thread..get some, loose some.
You never miss, but you can't crit. Immune to chaos but 1 life etc etc..
It's an inteded "drawback" wich can be countered, in more than 1 ways..but that's not comfortable enough, because you'll have to give upp an ammy slot, a ring slot, some flask mods etc etc..and in the end THIS is what it's all about.

Yes, the drawback of CI is you have 1 life. The drawback of CI shouldn't be, "you need to take life nodes or you'll spend most of the game stunned, shocked, frozen, or on fire." As mentioned, the need to either run certain items or take life nodes is like needing to grab crit or accuracy nodes (or use a lioneyes) with resolute technique. You don't need to do it with Resolute Technique, so why do you need to with CI?

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Gahrlaag wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Your best defense is just to get ghost reaver and life leech and don't worry about getting hit..and if you do, there's granites for it.

fixed it for ya

As opposed to the high life/armor build with regen that can simply sit there and facetank plain mobs without any fear.

So you need to take additional passives and be an active player in order to not be as squishy as the alternative is innately. And none of this helps you with the various loading screen and d/c deaths that can happen to you.

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thepmrc wrote:

CI and high life builds are not equal if you assume CI doesn't have stun/status issues.

If you make stun/status tied to ES then ES players will be immune to stuns / status effects / and chaos damage. A good CI player will have more ES than an average HP user with kaom's heart.

BTW I don't think you know what intuitive means. Nowhere in the CI description does it say anything about changing stun/status calculations. It does not say anything about converting your life to ES. There is NOTHING to mislead you into thinking it changes the way those calculations work. If it did change the calculations... then it would be unintuitive.

Really? So how many players run around with 12k ES? A player like Dominion is level 94 with the best ES gear in the game and he runs around with 11k ES. The 'good' CI player will likely be significantly less. Someone with a high life build and Kaom's should be running around with >10k life and have hundreds of points of constant regen a second.

But yeah, keep telling yourself that good CI's will have more ES than high HP players with Kaom's. If you say it often enough, people might actually fall for it.

And I assure you that I understand what intuitive means. If you think it's intuitive that the game mechanics encourage you to take life nodes when your life becomes 1, I'm not sure you know what it means.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Yes, the drawback of CI is you have 1 life. The drawback of CI shouldn't be, "you need to take life nodes or you'll spend most of the game stunned, shocked, frozen, or on fire." As mentioned, the need to either run certain items or take life nodes is like needing to grab crit or accuracy nodes (or use a lioneyes) with resolute technique. You don't need to do it with Resolute Technique, so why do you need to with CI?

You don't...just use Eye of Chayula and a Dreamfrags and you can skip all the lifenodes.
And they're called build enablers, the same way lioneyes makes archers able to skip resolute..

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Gahrlaag wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Yes, the drawback of CI is you have 1 life. The drawback of CI shouldn't be, "you need to take life nodes or you'll spend most of the game stunned, shocked, frozen, or on fire." As mentioned, the need to either run certain items or take life nodes is like needing to grab crit or accuracy nodes (or use a lioneyes) with resolute technique. You don't need to do it with Resolute Technique, so why do you need to with CI?

You don't...just use Eye of Chayula and a Dreamfrags and you can skip all the lifenodes.
And they're called build enablers, the same way lioneyes makes archers able to skip resolute..

Yes, read what you said again. Lioneye's enables you to skip RT. Chayula and Dream Fragments enable you to take CI. The two are not equivalent. :P Not to mention a Lioneye's would be a damn good bow even if it didn't have 100% accuracy. Chayula and Dream Fragments would be completely useless items if it didn't have things that high life builds don't even need.

That fact that you're encouraged to either run 2 mediocre uniques or counterintuitively take life nodes just so you can have a viable CI is a pretty big buzzkill. If the developers really wanted CI and high life builds to be on even footing, add a keystone that states that status effects are calculated off of ES rather than health. I'm sure every CI build will rush it.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

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Gahrlaag wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Yes, the drawback of CI is you have 1 life. The drawback of CI shouldn't be, "you need to take life nodes or you'll spend most of the game stunned, shocked, frozen, or on fire." As mentioned, the need to either run certain items or take life nodes is like needing to grab crit or accuracy nodes (or use a lioneyes) with resolute technique. You don't need to do it with Resolute Technique, so why do you need to with CI?

You don't...just use Eye of Chayula and a Dreamfrags and you can skip all the lifenodes.
And they're called build enablers, the same way lioneyes makes archers able to skip resolute..

Yes, read what you said again. Lioneye's enables you to skip RT. Chayula and Dream Fragments enable you to take CI. The two are not equivalent. :P

That fact that you're encouraged to either run 2 mediocre uniques or counterintuitively take life nodes just so you can have a viable CI is a pretty big buzzkill. If the developers really wanted CI and high life builds to be on even footing, add a keystone that states that status effects are calculated off of ES rather than health. I'm sure every CI build will rush it.

Semantics ;) i'm certain that you understood fully what i ment ;)
And that's why it's not for everyone...and it shouldn't be either. IF they wanted them to be on even fotting, don't u think they would have made it work that way?
And we're back to that yet again...making it calculate your ES instead of life = INSANELY OP..that's why every CI build (and most likely any other build aswell) would rush it..chaos immune life.

I'm not sure it would be insanely OP. High life builds would still have the advantage of being able to stack armor far more effectively and have much higher constant regen. The result would be they're able to facetank physical damage much easier. Not to mention they would have fewer mana problems because they can take EB or BM. Half/no-regen maps can slow a CI to a crawl.

Not to mention, with good gear, it's not hard to have respectable chaos res anyway. I had 40 chaos res on a high life build and can outregen pretty much all sources of chaos damage.

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Even high level CI's will have issues, mainly the fact that you're going to be extremely squishy to any form of physical attack because you almost certainly have crappy armor/evasion and very little regen.

Your best defense is just to run around like a monkey and not get hit.

Not at all, Life Leech + Ghost Reaver along with tons of Dps/high crit chance/crit multiplier means that I can facetank just about anything. Everything infront of me gets permafrozen and I get 7% of all the aoe dmg back as ES. ES regen is complitely neglected and I have zero issues surviving aside from Desync. I have died 2 times since level 80 and both have been because of Desync.

So in a way, it is funny for you to say high level CI's will have issues, when I am one and I don't. Mid level ones on the other hand ...

Yeah with chayula you can facetank every mob and i love it

(Except the fucking undying culstist, the mob that does more damage than brutus and run faster than a stalker with haste and mov speed map)

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Eldaire wrote:

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UnderOmerta wrote:

Even high level CI's will have issues, mainly the fact that you're going to be extremely squishy to any form of physical attack because you almost certainly have crappy armor/evasion and very little regen.

Your best defense is just to run around like a monkey and not get hit.

Not at all, Life Leech + Ghost Reaver along with tons of Dps/high crit chance/crit multiplier means that I can facetank just about anything. Everything infront of me gets permafrozen and I get 7% of all the aoe dmg back as ES. ES regen is complitely neglected and I have zero issues surviving aside from Desync. I have died 2 times since level 80 and both have been because of Desync.

So in a way, it is funny for you to say high level CI's will have issues, when I am one and I don't. Mid level ones on the other hand ...

Yes, you're fine with ghost reaver + life leech. But it's not really tanking if you're actively doing things to help regen your life. That's like saying you're tanking if you're hitting potions. With good high life builds, you can sit next to Piety and AFK. Good luck with that as a CI.

There's been plenty of cases where CI's, even high level CI's, have died to lag/desync/portaling in because they almost always have no armor and thus take almost full damage from any amount of physical attack. The fact that you can stay alive with LL + GR + VP means nothing if you got disconnected and aren't leeching.