Zizaran and build viability!

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Phrazz wrote:

I'm not saying Mathil is 100% wrong, though. From his point of view, he can make 90% of all skills work in an endgame scenario. But as I said previously, he has several years of experience, a lot of time on his hands and is, quite frankly, a very good player when it comes to positioning and reflexes.

If that's the basis required to view certain skills as "viable", then we mortals are surely doomed :P

Oh I agree on that, he had valid points and he did bring them up again when needed. On a number of those I think he got through to Chris. In any case his opinion should be welcomed, or no opinion at all. And I'm pretty sure we all have one.

Nearing the end of it now. Man oh man, do i have to say, really love Mathil calling out the "build viability part". Really well articulated there.

Topper is, Ziz clearly doesnt know what hes talking about. You need dodge and block for every build, especially things like FR ? Lol no, just no. This is a really good example of Mathil, who clearly goes above and beyond to test builds and someone who consistently plays on meta/other players builds.

You dont need block or dodge in a build at all, dont know where that kind of mentality even comes into play when one of the top Ascendancies for as long as i have been around, was Slayer. Most slam builds as well, zero block or dodge. Just raw life, Warcries, Flasks, Regen/Leech.

Why do i feel like this even needs to be said ? Like, im sorry you picked an ES build and think that the building blocks of it are entirely reliant on Raw ES and somehow think you need block ? Have you ever you know, TRIED ES regen or faster shield restart ?

I had a super old insanely broken Whispering Ice build where i stacked Brittle Barrier jewels, got a shit ton of energy shield recharge rate and my ES would zip back up to full so long as i stayed cleansed from DOT. You took a bigger initial hit but that didnt matter because LUL CI 20k+ ES. And on the off chance i might take damage whispering ice slowed/freezed most everything anyways.

Theres plenty of ways to build defense but for some reason people think their characters shouldnt have to adhere to an archetype without investment. Why would a spell caster have more dodge and block and base raw HP than another character, have range advantage ? They shouldnt, not without investment.

Im sorry but i just find it comical how people run around like melee characters on caster builds and whine that they arent tanky because theyre stupid and flame dash into a middle of the pack to clear instead of, you know, using their range/off screen advantage.

Its the typical W+M1 mentality. Like im sorry but it really is lol. Like range has such a comically massive advantage in this game and people like that arent utilizing it properly.

For the record, i dont think defense is in a terrible place for most things because most things are running shit like MOM. However builds that are fully reliant on armour or evasion as a source of damage mitigation does nothing when the hit is too big, regardless of being massively invested into it and those "defenses" not actually contributing to your raw life pool or functionality like Mind over Matter does with Mana and mana regen, etc.

I think the investment cost for most builds who do get a large amount of defense is too high, they lose too much damage in doing so. Plus theres diminishing returns on defenses to you arent just "unkillable".

This is why meta build are meta, there are no "sacrifices" or "compromises", theyre just flat out good. The joe investing like 40 points into defenses nodes get nothing at the end of the day if their life pool isnt big enough, meanwhile Darin the Drone, invests a point into MOM, inherently gets mana/mana regen because its already part of the build and gets a substantial raw HP increase as well as defense.

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kaepae wrote:

Saying that the community has changed and does not put in enough effort is counterproductive to reaching this goal.

Bringing forward an email that notes a social factor, without weighing out the actual impact and discussing it, is weak and should have been removed from the table. However, that is a negotiating stance. Adding a soft factor using a complex description that is hard to unravel was strictly used to make it harder on the other participant.

Pure negotiating tactic.

Poor honest Ziz :-) running into that.

But it's painfully apparent.

You don't even need to measure it. I often look at PoENinja first 4 weeks then last 4 weeks. Generally one build stays and a new build maybe two shows it's mass supremacy the last 4 weeks.

Is some esp bad example the same 3 or so builds hold supremacy the entire league. In cases like this even the "starter build" and gearing process can be removed as variables.

It's a very clear herd effect that can't really be put in a productive or unproductive manner. I'm sure you've heard the term FoTM (Flavor of the Month). This is essentially what happens when Devs try to directly combat that social construct and it's not any better.

GGG can shake up the meta all they want. It's not going to change the people who follow this method. Personally I don't get it. I play a different build every league, I play PoE for the builds.

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Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

You dont need block or dodge in a build at all, dont know where that kind of mentality even comes into play when one of the top Ascendancies for as long as i have been around, was Slayer. Most slam builds as well, zero block or dodge. Just raw life, Warcries, Flasks, Regen/Leech.

Block and Dodge are very strong mechanics but I agree. Layering is generally the key when talking defensive stats and I kept screaming in my head FROZEN!!! when that was going on.

The only argument I can really get behind when it comes to block is that Shields are just too good. Max Res, easy 1k HP, %Life on Block, ect. If you can use a Shield, even without Block investment, it's a no brainer IMO. The DPS loss is far and above worth it for the Defense boost.

That's honestly mostly just Dual Wield sucking.

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innervation wrote:

I'm confident that every skill is viable for all content.

*Heavy Strike*

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Xzorn wrote:

But it's painfully apparent.

You don't even need to measure it. I often look at PoENinja first 4 weeks then last 4 weeks. Generally one build stays and a new build maybe two shows it's mass supremacy the last 4 weeks.

Is some esp bad example the same 3 or so builds hold supremacy the entire league. In cases like this even the "starter build" and gearing process can be removed as variables.

It's a very clear herd effect that can't really be put in a productive or unproductive manner. I'm sure you've heard the term FoTM (Flavor of the Month). This is essentially what happens when Devs try to directly combat that social construct and it's not any better.

GGG can shake up the meta all they want. It's not going to change the people who follow this method. Personally I don't get it. I play a different build every league, I play PoE for the builds.

It is a factor, but not the only factor. The wording he used was complex. There was no weighing of this factor versus other factors. A characteristic of this factor is that the weight of it is hard to measure. No proper conclusions from it were presented.

"I just got an email and it said this: bunch of complex words that hold some truth.". End.

The way it was brought in was from a negotiative stance. And I mean to emphasize the differences in the stances here.

But it's a start.

edit: grammar

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kaepae wrote:

It is a factor, but not the only factor. The wording he used was complex. There was no weighing of this factor versus other factors. A characteristic of this factor is that the weight of it is hard to measure. No proper conclusions from it were presented.

"I just got an email and it said this: bunch of complex words that hold some truth.". End.

The way it was brought in was from a negotiative stance. And I mean to emphasize the differences in the stances here.

But it's a start.

I think Chris was mostly trying to say, this is a thing and since only GGG can see the numbers / variable he brought it up almost in frustration. This leads me to think it's a large factor.

As a mod developer I get sad myself when people don't use a new skill or perk I spent a week on so that's an approach I totally get. Esp when you've been asked the same question tons of times.

It's not exactly professional but it's real which I've always appreciated from Chris.