Zizaran and build viability!

The tricky part here is that act1 Brutus considered an endgame for the Chris.

Generally the more easy a skill is to use the more damage it does, full screen clear skills like elemental hit do far more damage than strike skills where you have to stand on an enemies feet and attempt to manually dodge 1 shots.

Not sure why GGG hate melee but it is clear that they despise it and anyone who plays it.

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albert2006xp wrote:

You should be able to make a bad build through bad choices that no amount of gear can fix.

I totally agree here.

A well-planned build with very good gear can make every skill work, at least to a degree - with time and knowledge. And that is how it should be IMO. And I agree that bad builds should exist through bad choices and lacking knowledge. I'm just not sure that bad skills should exist. And no matter how we turn or place the table, some skills are considerably weaker than others.

While I think the ceiling on certain 'forgotten', underused skills should be higher than it is know, as some skills even struggeled before the support gem nerf, others might feel it takes something away from the game when it comes to "good" and "bad" choices regarding the skill you choose.

What skill you choose shouldn't be the bottleneck of your build. Your gear, passive points and other choices should. And as it stands now, some skills are adding a bottleneck to your build.

Oh man, that was hilarious to watch.

Ziz was Parroting the community which to be fair it's an interview and he's kinda supposed to I guess? More just seems like trying to play the good guy to me. I think he said Harvest like 30 times.

Harvest isn't any solution to build viability. What a dumb concept. All people do is make what they think isn't viable strong and things that are too strong exponentially more so.

There's a few stinker skills but there's also tons of viable options. It's why I quit playing HC.

Only thing that annoyed me was the throw back to Diablo 2 with itemization when PoE doesn't use anything like D2 itemization. I used to mod Diablo 1 and played way too much of D2. Monster lvl, Dungeon lvl, Qlvl, Ilvl all played a roll in prefix / suffix rolls giving you higher chances of better rolls and lower chances of low roles. PoE doesn't do that and it's why drops suck so bad.

"

Xzorn wrote:

Harvest isn't any solution to build viability. What a dumb concept. All people do is make what they think isn't viable strong and things that are too strong exponentially more so.

Yeah, well, no harvest is (was) an imbalanced tool that lets you forget about/ignore build viability, because you overcompensate with close-to perfect gear. Fun for a league or two, I'll admit, but far from a good solution.

One of the reasons why I care about this subject, is that I like to play Strike skills. I like to be in the middle of the fight, and I feel that I'm interacting more with the game when playing a Strike skill, than I am playing huge AoE screen-clearing skills.

And while there are some Strike skills I would consider "good", there are some I would consider more or less useless. Some of them requires two non-damage support gems, which the skills aren't really compensated for in the damage department. I also feel like the close combat playstyle isn't really compensated for when it comes to defenses either, and the fact that you have to stay in the middle of things.

Dual Strike? Heavy Strike? Static Strike? Molten Strike? Vigilant Strike? Are all in a bad place IMO. Sure, you can make them work, especially with Hunter gloves with additional targets, but the investment needed makes them a non-viable choice in the grand scheme of things. Frost Baldes and Wild Strike are good clearing skills, even though Wild Strike feels awful without heavy investment into strike range.

Playing a Smite Raider this league, and I actually like where Smite is at the moment. Wouldn't hurt with a little damage boost, but it's FAR better than the skills I listed above.

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Xzorn wrote:

Oh man, that was hilarious to watch.

Ziz was Parroting the community which to be fair it's an interview and he's kinda supposed to I guess? More just seems like trying to play the good guy to me. I think he said Harvest like 30 times.

Harvest isn't any solution to build viability. What a dumb concept. All people do is make what they think isn't viable strong and things that are too strong exponentially more so.

There's a few stinker skills but there's also tons of viable options. It's why I quit playing HC.

Only thing that annoyed me was the throw back to Diablo 2 with itemization when PoE doesn't use anything like D2 itemization. I used to mod Diablo 1 and played way too much of D2. Monster lvl, Dungeon lvl, Qlvl, Ilvl all played a roll in prefix / suffix rolls giving you higher chances of better rolls and lower chances of low roles. PoE doesn't do that and it's why drops suck so bad.

I was literally about to quote and reply on the very same thing.

Yes, Harvest WAS a solution to build diversity. With the ability to craft very specific set of unique items, you could make the weirdest skills and playstyles work within the league's timeframe.

"

Phrazz wrote:

Mathil also has a couple of luxuries that 'most' players don't have; 10+ years of knowledge

Holy shit ... the game has existed since 2013. (2021 - 2013 = ?????) :-D

What's in the build?
- main skill
- support skills (curses, auras)
- mobility
- items

What makes build viable
- kill mobs before getting killed
- move through the map without getting killed
- kill boss in reasonable time frame
- recover if you get hit (or don't get hit)

In 3.13 and couple leagues before that, some of the elements of builds were solved with items. And there was heavy focus on items.
- Get Explody chest - solve problem of killing mobs before getting killed. Also removed corpses. NERFED
- Get 30% movement speed boots, flask for 70% movement speed, onslaught, if rich tailwind. You've got your mobility solved by having basically perma 140% MS. At that speed normal mobs cannot touch you. NERFED
- kill boss in reasonable time frame is too wide. Most bosses you can do with 300k dps. You spend in the fight 3 times longer than person with 1 million, but that does not say much about viability.
Because if you can easily recover while in fight, it's fine
-- dmg nerfed across the board
-- flask recovery nerfed
-- mana recovery nerfed (for mana builds)
-- defensive flasks nerfed by a lot
-- leech is dead outside of Slayer mostly
-- ES / life on hit - either item or support - trade off - this is fine I guess
-- Block is class specific, otherwise investment is heavy
-- Dodge is a lot of travel


3.15 brought nerfs to many elements that goes around and make "builds" viable without even touching the primary skills and their parameters. This is something that is eluding most of the conversations about "builds" as the primary focus is mostly on main skills.

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Ydoum wrote:

"

Xzorn wrote:

Oh man, that was hilarious to watch.

Ziz was Parroting the community which to be fair it's an interview and he's kinda supposed to I guess? More just seems like trying to play the good guy to me. I think he said Harvest like 30 times.

Harvest isn't any solution to build viability. What a dumb concept. All people do is make what they think isn't viable strong and things that are too strong exponentially more so.

There's a few stinker skills but there's also tons of viable options. It's why I quit playing HC.

Only thing that annoyed me was the throw back to Diablo 2 with itemization when PoE doesn't use anything like D2 itemization. I used to mod Diablo 1 and played way too much of D2. Monster lvl, Dungeon lvl, Qlvl, Ilvl all played a roll in prefix / suffix rolls giving you higher chances of better rolls and lower chances of low roles. PoE doesn't do that and it's why drops suck so bad.

I was literally about to quote and reply on the very same thing.

Yes, Harvest WAS a solution to build diversity. With the ability to craft very specific set of unique items, you could make the weirdest skills and playstyles work within the league's timeframe.

No it fucking isnt lol, Harvest offers nothing build defining that you cant already get on other gear without it lmao. You harvest kids.

"

Tin_Foil_Hat wrote:

"

Ydoum wrote:

I was literally about to quote and reply on the very same thing.

Yes, Harvest WAS a solution to build diversity. With the ability to craft very specific set of unique items, you could make the weirdest skills and playstyles work within the league's timeframe.

No it fucking isnt lol, Harvest offers nothing build defining that you cant already get on other gear without it lmao. You harvest kids.

Harvest actually could alleviate a lot of problems of skills and play styles, by making the numbers "good enough" easily.

It's not one fix for all (in the current state of over nerfed item mod tags even Harvest would not be as powerful as originally deployed) but it would give a roadmap for a lot of builds how to overcome the randomness of crafting system and get item mod combinations which might never appear on the market otherwise.