Do we need something valuable that ONLY comes from mid-tier maps?

I like the point you are making, but I think the balance is solely thrown out by GGG's decisions (on grinding toward / gating access to red maps, on moronic dragged out storylines and rubbish like watchstones). It used to be that even if you didn't find anything good in yellow maps, at the least you were levelling up your gems, even resetting them to 20% quality and a long way to their 2nd cap of level 20 by red maps. It used to be, you could find a map that you might choose to run later, after you've found a bit more life on your gear, or a bit more damage from levels.

Then they bloated the grind, gated the map drops, unbalanced the economy, dragged out the gem levelling and crafting time frames, and made all new content require a mind-numbing amount of repetitions. As such, I suggest that the reason "yellow maps are dull" is simple - stupid choices were made in an unkind spirit, and the game would be dramatically improved if they were reversed in ways like:

- level 20 gem exp. cap reduced
- average runs to reach red maps reduced by a lot
- completely remove watchstones and chasing arbitrary things through maps as an intelligence-insulting way of trying to drag out already stretched content.
- map drops changed, so that on average it takes half the time to find the maps you need to complete the atlas

However if they continue to ignore these improvements, second best would be, as you suggest, to make the lower tier of crafted and dropped items go up a bit, so you are more chance of improving your gear if you manage to stay sane through the yellow map drudgery.

The concept of value is relative, so the game needs to be designed in a way that makes farming lower content valuable.

In current PoE the cost of getting to T16s is so low that farming anything below that is considered a waste of time.

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innervation wrote:

Do you have any data why you think mid tier maps are lagging behind? I've never had a problem running T1-11 maps for 50 or 100 exalts to get my next characters/projects funded.

Sure you said T0 bases but that argument boils down to 'higher maps give better loot'. I don't think many would argue that (lets forget about Legion league for a second) but if you can get 80% of the value while running T9 maps, that would be roughly balanced, right?

No not data. I feel like the definition of "end-game" is missed in a lot of GGG translation.

I feel like even "noobs" feel left behind in yellow maps. But by giving intrinsic value to yellow maps maybe they would psychologically feel as if they aren't wasting their time in yellows, but rather farming there for items that actually impact their red-tier endgame as well as others.

And I also get your point on 80% of your value. But i'm looking at it from a perspective of players that don't make it to red maps for whatever reason at all. Yellow maps is there endgame. The relatively "casual" player that complains about the time commitments a fully unlocked atlas requires.

Red map sustain used to be a luxury back in the day. You really had to juice the hell out of your maps to get and stay in red maps. That's not the case now... but a large chunk of players feel as if they don't have the knowledge/time to prepare their characters adequately for red-tier maps.

This would just give a "value" feeling to players that can't commit to unlocking maven passives, farm end game bosses, or other activities that a lot of red-tier normies take for granted.

Hell you could create an entire middle class of players that are happy to grind every league to yellow maps (assuming it takes them a long time because of their play condidtions) and potentially be okay with it emotionally.

This is more of a meta game-psychology kind of approach to it.

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Ruffleberg wrote:

The concept of value is relative, so the game needs to be designed in a way that makes farming lower content valuable.

In current PoE the cost of getting to T16s is so low that farming anything below that is considered a waste of time.

Two things on this imo;

1) It's already designed that way, for the most part. There's a couple very late end game things that only spawn / happen on T14+, but other then that you can run yellow maps and still find uniques / currency.

2) I can't think of any way to make the mid game any more rewarding then stated in #1, without immediately ruining the point of the late game.

Essentially, I think this is a non issue that doesn't need changing.

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Bleu42 wrote:

"

Ruffleberg wrote:

The concept of value is relative, so the game needs to be designed in a way that makes farming lower content valuable.

In current PoE the cost of getting to T16s is so low that farming anything below that is considered a waste of time.

Two things on this imo;

1) It's already designed that way, for the most part. There's a couple very late end game things that only spawn / happen on T14+, but other then that you can run yellow maps and still find uniques / currency.

2) I can't think of any way to make the mid game any more rewarding then stated in #1, without immediately ruining the point of the late game.

Essentially, I think this is a non issue that doesn't need changing.

This stipulates value being tied to drops solely, revolving around currency or items.

There's also a value tied into progression. Granted this is often hinging on drops that enables progression, but in reality, the value of the latter ties into effort and time invested that isn't being rewarded with a progressive flow.

Time gating progression, making it more tedious and conditioned upon gambling, can be too much of a challenge for most when they've simultaneously made it harder to craft and gated upgrades behind gambling mechanics that also requires more of a grind to even accomplish.

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Prizy wrote:

I feel like even "noobs" feel left behind in yellow maps. But by giving intrinsic value to yellow maps maybe they would psychologically feel as if they aren't wasting their time in yellows, but rather farming there for items that actually impact their red-tier endgame as well as others.



This is more of a meta game-psychology kind of approach to it.

Well I'm here to tell you that no matter how many fish you give them, if they aren't doing exactly what they see the streamers doing they're going to complain that 'the 1% get balanced around and have all the fun'. No matter how many good things there are to find in lower map tiers.

They need to be taught how to fish. Really they need to teach themselves. Say what you will about streamers but many of them put out currency making guides every single league. Even people in this thread don't get it - they're talking about 'drops' and currency. Pay attention to the guy talking about beasts. Every past league content can be farmed for the real currency. Temples, Betrayal, Essence, Perandus, Beasts, all of it. Drops are only half of the equation. Maybe less.

These players are probably walking right by fruit trees complaining they have nothing to eat.

The worst (for me) is if you FINALLY dropped that needed T15 Mud Geyser that you need for atlas/bonus completion, then only have to vaal it into another tier or unplayable rolls.

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Bleu42 wrote:

Two things on this imo;

1) It's already designed that way, for the most part. There's a couple very late end game things that only spawn / happen on T14+, but other then that you can run yellow maps and still find uniques / currency.

2) I can't think of any way to make the mid game any more rewarding then stated in #1, without immediately ruining the point of the late game.

Essentially, I think this is a non issue that doesn't need changing.

GGG could gate four watchstone maps behind a huge difficulty spike. This would shift the meta to farming lower content and finding alternative strategies to craft/trade the gear needed to progress the character.

A large majority of the playerbase can get to the highest tier endgame content in the first week of a new league. That means that there are twelve weeks of little to no progression.

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Ruffleberg wrote:

A large majority of the playerbase can get to the highest tier endgame content in the first week of a new league. That means that there are twelve weeks of little to no progression.

That's wrong though, the players that can reach the endgame (T14+) on the first week were only a small minority. The large majority were still either in Acts or white to yellow maps.

My proof, check any of the Official Challenge stats posted by GGG after a month of the start of the league, only less than a quarter finished 12 challenges which mostly covers the campaign & early white maps.

Source
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2916050
https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2757540

Just farm alts for trading.