Do we need something valuable that ONLY comes from mid-tier maps?

I was thinking... players always push back with "all game activities shouldn't be able to be completed by all players." Some even argue that access to those activities is also okay if it is gated (i.e. I have a character that can kill Awakener 8, but I don't have all the watchstones, etc).


I think what a lot of veteran players are missing is that the reason many players rush to red-tier end game is that using currency/crafting/farming mid-tier maps feels bad since there is no real reward structure present in that part of the game.

Red-tier maps:
1) Best bases with T0 rolls
2) Best Influenced bases with T1-T0 rolls in conjunction
3) Crafting feels "most worth it" at this point in the game
4) Best experience gained per map run (okay imo as there is more challenge here)

Yellow-tier maps:
1) No real reason to craft gear in this phase of the game as it feels "useless"
2) No specific rewards tied to mid-tier maps that red-tier farmers could buy from mid-tier farmers
3) Nothing that makes the "middle" grind feel distinct.


How can we bridge the mid-game to the end-game? Can we make a little more dependency on items in mid-tier that are wanted by end-game players?

Currency falls at all levels currently. Should we limit specific currencies (maybe a new one) to mid-tier to where farming it doesn't feel bad or useless in the grand scale of the POE economy?

The solution of making the mid-game harder for the people that are farming there without giving them a reason to farm there is primarily the reason people are grumbling about how "grindy" POE has become.

I feel like most players saying "end game" think the end game as farming T14-T16 and unlocking the detail in the Atlas (i.e. maven passives, favorite map system, etc). When GGG references end-game, they seem to literally be speaking of T1 white mapping ALL THE WAY to T16.

This leads to design disconnect regarding nerfs where the journey to perfect your character in red-tier maps isn't slowed down much, whereas your mid-tier progress gets really hurt by nerfs if you aren't a "red-map andy".

Also I think it could go a long way if yellow items (ilvl 75-79) would eliminate the possibility of rolling T10 rolls (i.e. 7 fire res, 1-2 added damage). This just reinforces how bad it feels to craft mid-tier gear.

If I were a mid-tier player, I would probably be more okay with spending chaos, etc trying to craft a mid-tier item knowing that it will always roll "decently" (i.e. 20-25 resistances for example).

The current dependency lies in the fact that anything can drop anywhere. So the red-tier boys and girls do rely a bit on mid-tier (fossils, random crafting mats, etc) BUT they can buy that from other red-tier farmers that drop more of that currency then yellow-tier maps.

I personally think adding specific value to yellow-tier mapping would make it so a lot more people wouldn't be upset by sweeping nerfs, etc.

What are your thoughts?

Disregarding any and all design choices through the ages I think the core issue will always be the consideration of proportionality. Time invested vs rewards.

Recent changes and earlier patches all weigh heavily on the increased time spent, and promise of greater rewards.

Problem is, most if not all are tied into gambling based rewards. More options for gambling are introduced, while regular drop rates are either nerfed or "shadow" tampered with.

In the spirit of Oprah, a lot were expecting to see headhunters drip like candy. You get a HH and you get a HH etc. Yet the overall amount of HH during leagues keep dropping.

It beckons the question, is the increased challenge worth it, when monsters and rewards aren't adjusted accordingly?

"

absurdistan88 wrote:

It beckons the question, is the increased challenge worth it, when monsters and rewards aren't adjusted accordingly?

Well I'm not sure what "worth it" means in this context. Can you explain a bit more? How would you quantitatively determine "worth" in this game?

I guess that's why I'm asking about a mid-tier map exclusive currency. It's tangible and only comes from mid-tier farmers (players that don't have the time to unlock all of atlas OR don't have the skill/knowledge).

Curious how you equate the mid-game with maps (and I agree btw). Where does that leave the campaign?

"

MrSparkle001 wrote:

Curious how you equate the mid-game with maps (and I agree btw). Where does that leave the campaign?

Yeah that's an awesome question actually and one maybe you can help explore!

In my mind, simply because I've played the game so long, I don't see the campaign as a big challenge. I personally don't think the campaign asks a LOT from players. Most of the time I don't even start looking at resistance cap, etc during the campaign.

My baseline for entering white maps is literally 75 ele res + approx 4-4.5 k life. That's it. It's very binary for me since that's what my experience tells me I need.

This could all change once all acts 1-10 are revamped with the new monster AI/difficulty, etc.

I think that would probably be evaluated once we actually determine that Acts 1-10 are actually a challenge that warrants it's own place within the POE economy.

From a basic perspective I kind of see the phases of the game like this:

Phase 1: Campaign + White maps
Phase 2: yellow tier maps + low-level bosses (atziri, merc lab enchants)
Phase 3: red-tier maps, end-game bosses


I kinda lump campaign and white maps as the gear necessary to complete those activities isn't difficult imo.

We used to have rewarding "mid-tier" map system in form of old atlas. There was an option to comple/shape one map you like at most and run it all the time with just alch and go.

"

karoollll2534 wrote:

We used to have rewarding "mid-tier" map system in form of old atlas. There was an option to comple/shape one map you like at most and run it all the time with just alch and go.

Right!??! That's exactly what I remember as well!

You point it out perfectly. The old atlas didn't feel like a grind, because the mid-tier map grind felt relatively valuable. I remember we had different tiers of elder that we could do based on the map tier we were in. We could see the boss (not in it's final form) and the drops were tapered accordingly. It was brilliant design.

I feel like the new atlas leaves the mid-tier out much more glaringly than the old one.

"

Prizy wrote:

"

absurdistan88 wrote:

It beckons the question, is the increased challenge worth it, when monsters and rewards aren't adjusted accordingly?

Well I'm not sure what "worth it" means in this context. Can you explain a bit more? How would you quantitatively determine "worth" in this game?

I guess that's why I'm asking about a mid-tier map exclusive currency. It's tangible and only comes from mid-tier farmers (players that don't have the time to unlock all of atlas OR don't have the skill/knowledge).

Put simply, twice the work for the same shitty drops.
Some consider rewards a draught session and having to struggle more for the same or less garbage loot, will be off putting.

Do you have any data why you think mid tier maps are lagging behind? I've never had a problem running T1-11 maps for 50 or 100 exalts to get my next characters/projects funded.

Sure you said T0 bases but that argument boils down to 'higher maps give better loot'. I don't think many would argue that (lets forget about Legion league for a second) but if you can get 80% of the value while running T9 maps, that would be roughly balanced, right?

There are things from lower-tier maps. However most of the players I would be don't know it.

One example is farming Beasts. Beasts spawn based on rarity tiers. At tier 4 the highest possible beasts are Craicic chimeral and the split beast. At tier 5 you unlock Saqawine. At t7 you unlock crab. At T10 you unlock Fenemus. So if you want to farm splits to sell then anything over t4 is making your chance of getting it worse.

There are other things like this out there btw.