Idea to help with retaining casual players

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Orthusaku wrote:

Correct me if I'm shopping but you would rather see the servers shut down due to aging and ding player base then have systems in game to assist with fixing knowledge, play style and build quality?

I wouldnt mind that, I just cant see how you´d do that in an ever changing game like this. You´d have to update everything pretty much every league, handhold the player to a massive degree and somehow the game needs to know what the player is up to or wants to achieve.

Again, I wouldnt mind some sort of helping systems like more tutorial steps and stuff like that early on in the game but I do think its the players responsibility to do the research and learning themselves if they really want to beat the topend of the game.
There should be zero help or handholding when it comes to this.


Besides there is the gameplay & help section right here on the forums.
Experienced players will try to help out and guide less experienced players to the best of their ability.
However there are much more threads going like "this game is unfair und needs to be completely overhauled to cater to me" than "Help Im stuck, what can I do?".

Which is why I dont take those complaints serious at all.
More often than not the complaining players didnt even try to improve but instead blame everything else and thats just not how it works nor how it should work.

I enjoy twinked leveling in the Acts. You can challenge yourself to see how fast you can get through without dying, etc. It's also a change of pace from mapping for just a few hours.

Though if you are making a new character every couple days for some reason, I can see how it can become tedious. But that's because you are still undecided on what you want to play in maps.

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Orbaal wrote:

It would be helpful, if you defined what exactly progress, casual gameplay and endgame means.

This is a good call out since I've used the term endgame sort of loosely.

Midgame - Finished campaign, working through White/Yellow maps. This is actually what the thread was originally targeting and I should have been more specific. Although I find this stage of the game quite pleasant it can feel like a chore if you aren't playing a build you enjoy.

Endgame - T14s and after. Once you are able to clear 4 watchstone regions you can grind Sirus fights, complete 10 boss Atlas region battles, and chip away at other high end boss content that isn't as target farmable (Elder, Shaper, Uber Atziri, etc). This is where the game gets more difficult and grindy but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Casual gameplay - 5 hours a week. No expectation here that this player should hit Endgame, but my proposal was giving a boost to help these type of players get a 2nd toon to Midgame. I'm arguing this would improve retention and potentially widen the player base by giving variety in gameplay as you progress the Atlas.

I think PoE really shines during the Midgame. It can be a bit confusing to newer players since their are a few systems progressing in parallel, but can feel like a well oiled machine when planned properly. I'd be curious if you disagree with any of these classifications. Progress is a different topic that is more focused around Endgame since the Midgame progression is in a good spot.

Progress - Ending a play session in a different game state than when you started. I'll further define 4 types:
1) Atlas Progress - This is very well defined by everything you see on the Atlas menu. You can grind a couple Atlas passive points for a region, trigger a Conqueror fight, or just increase general map completion/awakening bonuses. When done efficiently you should be chipping away at all of these things simultaneously.
2) Character Progress - This is everything about a character other than their gear. Grinding experience is incremental progress, but after lvl 90 (especially 95+) this slows down considerably. Leveling gems and pantheon god powers are other examples. These aren't in a bad spot but by lvl 95 you will be complete all of these type of improvements. I find I start to get burnt out at this time because of the state of #3 and #4.
3) Wealth Progress - It is important to remember the currency isn't player power. It is "potential" player power. For trade league this is in a good state because you can convert currency into gear upgrades. Atlas trees, scarabs, and daily missions give some control to improve specific drops. You will always have more currency at the end of a session than when you started. However, when not in trade league this currency converts to gear upgrades much less frequently. This is why I see trade as a huge crutch for character progression. Any argument about the state of the game that leverages trade as a core principal is missing the fact that you are reliant on the cumulative luck of the entire community to see any upgrade in gear opposed to being able to find stuff on your own. This is my main problem with BalorMage's experiment. I wonder what % of his time he spent trading? Based on the little bit I've watched I'd say a lot. He is playing the economy, not the game at that point.
4) Gear Progress - The item hunt we all love. The backbone of ARPGs. I broke down different gear progress options in my last post. I think this area could use some work for SSF. More things like catalysts. If I want to upgrade a piece of gear I mostly have to wait for a super rare event to happen. It is very likely your gear will not progress at all after a play session when you hit endgame.

The state of progress isn't terrible, but personally I find around lvl 95 that #2 is effectively complete and I can go an entire week without #4 happening. I get burnt out since #1 and #3 alone aren't enough to move the needle for me. Yes, trade league is a thing that would essentially convert #3 progress into #4 progress but that is sort of a crutch. I'm banking on someone else finding the upgrade I want. All I'm saying is it sure would be nice if I could find my own upgrades in a reasonable amount of time.

Sorry for the long posts, but this feedback is causing me to think about my positions more deeply. TLDR: Midgame is great and everything progresses fluidly, so we should aim to get more players experiencing this part of the game. Endgame is okay, but imo could use more avenues for incremental progress that don't involve trade.

Honestly with just 5hrs playtime a week this player has no business in a league environment.

In my experience a slow-ish player will easily take 20hrs just to complete the acts, some 100-150hrs on top to get to the endgame as you defined it and even more to grind out all the stuff needed.

With a duration of 11 weeks per league, this player would have to do it in 55hrs total playtime.
Cant see that happening.


At this point its standard or busted following your definition.
And in standard time doesnt matter as much. You can restore most of your Atlas progression and get to keep your characters as well.
Means far less grinding required to get to endgame - funding/finding the required gear is a whole different story tho.

Aren't you assuming that the Casual player needs to get to Endgame in a league or it's a waste? I'd argue that being part of the new league hype and having fun in the Midgame is plenty for a Casual. It is the only chance a player ever gets to experience the overtuned version of a new mechanic (Harvest - OP explody chest/tailwind boots, Delirium - more cluster jewels than your know what to do with, etc).

If the Casual player's only goal is to kill Maven then Standard is the better option. But if the super late Endgame content is your goal then technically Standard is better no matter the player. If all these players enjoyed playing Standard as you imply then we wouldn't see huge dips in player numbers 2 months into a league cycle. The first 2 months of a new league IS PoE. It drives supporter packs, it drives Twitch views, and it drives player engagement.

Claiming that casuals should stick to Standard isn't far off from saying they shouldn't play the game period.

Not exactly no.

There is a stark difference between an experienced player playing casually and a true casual.

The former has already acquired the knowledge needed to make it to endgame (T14+ by your definition) and the latter one has a hard time grasping all mechanics involved.
Im not saying a true casual is stupid or anything like that, Im simply following the "players with less than 1k playtime are considered filthy noobs" meme.
If that meme holds water than a true casual will likely never be anything else than a noob and is far more likely to be overwhelmed by all mechanics involved, constant balance changes and introduction of new stuff.


I dont care how people like to play the game - each his own.
But I do care if endgame (again T14+) should be considered noob territory and thus turning the game into just another casual trashgame like 1000s other games out there.

As long as a true casual is willing to adjust expectations accordingly, willing to be content with not making it to endgame let alone beating the game in a league environment then I have no argument with that and also Im more than willing to help this player out when I can.


But again, Im not willing to reduce the requirements needed to get to endgame just to satisfy true casuals. If that was the case and a true casual could make it to endgame in like 30hrs and beat the game in like 50hrs (pretty much max playtime in a league by your definition), then everybody else will be done in less than a week. Because they know more, they are faster and they are more efficient.
Any league would turn into a wasteland not even a week into it and for what?

Just to make true casuals happy? Arent enough casual games out there already? Why turn one of the last remaining non-casual games into one?
Thats my point.

Why not just say it's something you want implemented for yourself rather than trying to dress it up as something to benefit new players/casual players/single parents with 6 kids, 9 jobs and only 1 arm?

I'm totally with the OP. A mate of mine has finished PoE. He built a Lacerate Gladiator dual-wielding axes and, true to the FastAF meme, he kills end-game bosses in one second with his lvl 100 character. I'm the exact opposite. I have never beaten any of the end-game bosses but I have played every ascendancy and most of the skills through Act 10 at least.

It's not just PoE either but almost every game I play. In Valheim, I watched a vid recently titled 'How you can make your second character different'. And I'm thinking WTF, there are people who only have ONE character?? I almost immediately started half-a-dozen characters. One specialised in bows, the next in clubs, the third in polearms, and so on. One character built one type of house, the next a different type, the third a different type again. One character tried to rush through the biomes (acts), the next took much more time, and so on. Variety of gameplay experience is far more appealing for me than beating the game - but only experiencing one aspect of it with a highly-specialised character.

I'm the same in RTS games. In Civ or Age of Empires, I won't pick one civ and specialise in them to the point where I can be internationally competitive in PvP. I'll play every civ just to get the full experience. Variety is the spice of life. If a game offers an opportunity, I want to take it. My mate has never played any skill in PoE other than Lacerate, no ascendancy other than Gladiator. I just can't see how he has got full value from the game.

Sure, he's lvl 100, he has mirror-tier gear, he has tons of currency and loot, he's beaten everything in the game. But that is just the vertical component of PoE. There is a horizontal component too.

I'm not sure the game needs changes to promote casuals trying more builds. I did it of my own accord and I've had great fun with it. But I do agree with the central notion that beating the end-game and making X number of Exalts an hour isn't the be-all and end-all of PoE, nor any other game.

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Orbaal wrote:

But I do care if endgame (again T14+) should be considered noob territory and thus turning the game into just another casual trashgame like 1000s other games out there.

I truly didn't think my original suggestion was anything close to this. On the contrary we're actually pretty close on how we think the game should be setup. It should take a very long time to do all the content (going vertical as the previous poster mentioned).

My point was that I think encouraging casuals to go horizontal will lead to them having a better experience. Should they just be making that decision on their own? Perhaps. But the reality is that the campaign is a huge time suck for such players as you mentioned before (20 hours sounds like a fair estimate) so it is unlikely they will do that multiple times in a league.

If anything I think this discussion has revealed how sacred many players consider the journey through the game. But I'd like to ask how such players feel about other QoL changes that essentially shorten this journey such as the Offering of the Goddess producing a Trial of Ascendancy in map device. Doesn't that compress the grind for these trials in a shorter time? Is the journey to Endgame cheapened since you get your Uber Lab sooner than you otherwise would?

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MyntBrryCrnch wrote:

My point was that I think encouraging casuals to go horizontal will lead to them having a better experience. Should they just be making that decision on their own? Perhaps. But the reality is that the campaign is a huge time suck for such players as you mentioned before (20 hours sounds like a fair estimate) so it is unlikely they will do that multiple times in a league.

They should absolutely make up their own minds and follow their own ideas.

While I agree the storyline is a timesink for casuals, I do not agree this is a major issue, its just a side effect.
The real issue with re-rolling into a new build too early is a waste of currency needed to fund a new build and time wasted which could have been used to farm endgame for currency. If you wanted to make it far into the game, you stick to the build you are playing.
The moment you do re-roll you do waste not only time but also currency which consequently cuts into the already tiny time- and currencybudgets available to those types of players.

Especially in a league its a very bad idea, because the new content will be overtuned as you stated previously. Usually this leads to players complaining right here on the forums because they are being decimated and destroyed by said new content.
Harvest being the one exception in years that actually did help progressing faster. Thats not the rule tho.

Pretty much everything else in previous leagues was pretty damn hard early on and people cried for nerfs - rightfully or not.
People are still complaining about mobs possessed by Sirus, even after they have been nerfed and dont pose a threat anymore to any decent build - unless you do rush T14+ content with half-assed builds and get your ass handed to you, if I may say so.


Casuals and everyone else are absolutely free to play the game in whichever way they prefer, however no one is entitled to anything. Endgame is not a participation trophy nor should it be just that.
If someone prefers to play horizontally - so be it. Go ahead and do just that.
Just be aware every decision made is followed by consequences and some of those might not be beneficial in terms of progression, but can still be beneficial in terms of fun. Priorities do indeed matter.
And besides: The more often you do play the campaign, the faster you get to maps - should you wish to put effort towards going faster.

Efficiency and fun dont always go hand in hand.
In fact more often than not its the opposite. Again, decisions and consequences - which to me is the very essence of PoE.