Unban request for unjust banning

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Suslikwishmaker wrote:

First reason being, this was clearly GGG's fault the exploit was something most people likely would have tried if they had a build that could handle it.

So... GGG fault is that they missing that exploit, but anyone who abuse that exploit for personal advantage are innocent?

Seriously? How exactly it's work in your inner world?

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DoEFotGS wrote:

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Suslikwishmaker wrote:

First reason being, this was clearly GGG's fault the exploit was something most people likely would have tried if they had a build that could handle it.

So... GGG fault is that they missing that exploit, but anyone who abuse that exploit for personal advantage are innocent?

Seriously? How exactly it's work in your inner world?

I mean technically it was a game mechanic at the time and how are we supposed to know getting too much "free stuff" isn't part of the new league mechanics?

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Hornybull wrote:

I mean technically it was a game mechanic at the time and how are we supposed to know getting too much "free stuff" isn't part of the new league mechanics?

Not, because way how it was abused is obviously not the way how it should worked. They interrupd encounter to delay progress bar while monsters still spawned. In designed way you stay inside circle all the time.

I'm not telling that it's not GGG fault to miss that exploit. I tell that both sides are not inoccent.

Also you can use that explout accidentally, or can abuse it intentionally - it's different situations and we talked here about second one.

So, abuse exploits - get banned. Fair enough.

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DoEFotGS wrote:

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Hornybull wrote:

I mean technically it was a game mechanic at the time and how are we supposed to know getting too much "free stuff" isn't part of the new league mechanics?

Not, because way how it was abused is obviously not the way how it should worked. They interrupd encounter to delay progress bar while monsters still spawned. In designed way you stay inside circle all the time.

I'm not telling that it's not GGG fault to miss that exploit. I tell that both sides are not inoccent.

Also you can use that explout accidentally, or can abuse it intentionally - it's different situations and we talked here about second one.

So, abuse exploits - get banned. Fair enough.

Honestly this just seems like bad mechanics design. Why should you be able to run out of the trial anyways? Also they didn't have the foresight to plan in the case a player was outside the area?

I get it that they work hard but this just screams that it was rushed and the mechanics weren't properly checked. Heck this is basic programming 101 to have multiple cases to code for.

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Hornybull wrote:

Honestly this just seems like bad mechanics design. Why should you be able to run out of the trial anyways? Also they didn't have the foresight to plan in the case a player was outside the area?

I get it that they work hard but this just screams that it was rushed and the mechanics weren't properly checked. Heck this is basic programming 101 to have multiple cases to code for.

You're 100% right and GGG should have thought to test this, but that doesn't mean the bans weren't justified. Those two things really have nothing to do with each other.

It's a tricky one for me. In any situation in life, there is an obligation to act with decency. To give a real life analogy, let's say someone goes to work and unwittingly leaves their front door wide open. I'm walking down the sidewalk past their house and see that the house is empty and open. I can:

1) Try to locate and contact the owner to inform them that their house is open.
2) Report it to the police or neighbourhood watch and let them take further action to protect the house from burglary until the owner returns.
3) Not do anything and just continue on my way.
4) Walk in and help myself to their stuff.

Arguing that 4 is acceptable because I didn't create the situation of the open door, the owner did, doesn't work for me. It doesn't matter what other people do, what should matter to me is what I do.

However, in this scenario there is a victim and physical property loss. In PoE, loot is not physical and not finite. If someone finds a glitch where every chest gives them 20 Exalted Orbs if they summon a Flame Golem and then pop a Diamond Flask in the two seconds before opening the chest, that doesn't exhaust the allotment of Exalts and mean that nobody else can get one. It's not stealing Exalts from anybody so it's a victimless crime.

Yes, there is a knock-on effect in the economy so it affects other people's game experience. But then we have to ask where one draws the line about using exploits. A couple of leagues ago, there was a bug with how Ballistas calculated Fork, resulting in the Ballista doing many times more Forks than was intended if you had Infractem equipped. It resulted in builds that cost almost nothing but which could insta-kill any boss in the game. It was reported and GGG fixed the internal calculations and game mechanics promptly. Nevertheless, those who made the build were able to run bosses very quickly and safely prior to the fix. That, too, had a knock-on effect in the economy albeit a minor one. Clearly, it is not how Ballistas were intended to work. If you didn't have Infractem, the exploit didn't work. Experienced players must have known this, yet exploited it anyway for boss loot and easy progression.

What would have happened if the person who discovered the Ballista/Infractem exploit had kept it to themselves and then used it to win Ziz's Gauntlet event where there was actual money at stake? It's in the game, they haven't modified or hacked the game files in any way. But is it a fair way to win?

These are difficult questions which affect the entire industry. The Valheim devs allow mods. One of the core features of the game is that you can't portal while you have ore in your inventory. You must instead run or sail back to your base. It was done to make the game more grindy which is fine as it's a survival game, the whole aim is to make you work really hard. Naturally one of the first mods removed the 'no portaling with ore' restriction and a section of the community was outraged at the 'cheating'.

Well, OK but the game has five boss fights which are the centrepiece of the combat aspect. For most of those fights, cheese workarounds exist where you can either dig trenches or build towers to put yourself out of range of the boss attacks and kill them with zero risk. The boss simply cannot target you with its attack, you are either too far below it or too high above it for the targeting AI to work. So it's cheating to use a mod that makes the game less grindy and time-consuming, but perfectly fine to use a cheese exploit where the hardest fights in the game become zero risk guaranteed wins?

Some defend it by claiming that digging trenches and building towers is in the core game but the portal mod isn't. So 'the mod isn't how the devs intended the game to be played'. But they DID intend boss fights to be perfectly safe zero risk encounters? I don't think so.

It strikes me as a rationalisation used to justify why the exploits that I use are fine and fair but the exploits that others use are cheating. That doesn't work for me.

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Hornybull wrote:

I still don't get it. The devs messed up and included something unwanted in the game and players found it. This isn't the player's fault and shouldn't get punish for something that's in the game.

How many of these players thought that maybe they found a more efficient way to grind?

Maybe they thought it was part of the game?

So the standard is to assume guilt and not innocence these days?

So if you went to an ATM and withdrew 50 bucks from your bank account and it spit out 5000 instead, you'd just keep it? And you think if later on the cops lift you out of your bed and take you to jail, you were innocent? What?

And that's not even what happened here. What happened here was even more obvious, as this wasn't the first "5000 they stole from that ATM", they were repeatedly doing it and on stream, which makes it worse by a notable factor, as it shows viewers how it's done and incites more players to try it.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Hornybull wrote:

I still don't get it. The devs messed up and included something unwanted in the game and players found it. This isn't the player's fault and shouldn't get punish for something that's in the game.

How many of these players thought that maybe they found a more efficient way to grind?

Maybe they thought it was part of the game?

So the standard is to assume guilt and not innocence these days?

So if you went to an ATM and withdrew 50 bucks from your bank account and it spit out 5000 instead, you'd just keep it? And you think if later on the cops lift you out of your bed and take you to jail, you were innocent? What?

And that's not even what happened here. What happened here was even more obvious, as this wasn't the first "5000 they stole from that ATM", they were repeatedly doing it and on stream, which makes it worse by a notable factor, as it shows viewers how it's done and incites more players to try it.

Except in a videogame literally nothing has material value and the value is from the video game it's self and not the individual items in it.

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Hornybull wrote:

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DoEFotGS wrote:

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Hornybull wrote:

I mean technically it was a game mechanic at the time and how are we supposed to know getting too much "free stuff" isn't part of the new league mechanics?

Not, because way how it was abused is obviously not the way how it should worked. They interrupd encounter to delay progress bar while monsters still spawned. In designed way you stay inside circle all the time.

I'm not telling that it's not GGG fault to miss that exploit. I tell that both sides are not inoccent.

Also you can use that explout accidentally, or can abuse it intentionally - it's different situations and we talked here about second one.

So, abuse exploits - get banned. Fair enough.

Honestly this just seems like bad mechanics design. Why should you be able to run out of the trial anyways? Also they didn't have the foresight to plan in the case a player was outside the area?

I get it that they work hard but this just screams that it was rushed and the mechanics weren't properly checked. Heck this is basic programming 101 to have multiple cases to code for.

its intentional taht you can leave the trial
in ritual ppl complained about not beeing able to run (without leaving the game) when they start to get overwhelmed

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Hornybull wrote:

Except in a videogame literally nothing has material value and the value is from the video game it's self and not the individual items in it.

If that's true, then why were the exploiters so keen to pick up all that loot?