Ritual Rewards Scaling is pretty bad

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BearCares wrote:

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relik155 wrote:

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Shagsbeard wrote:

You still wont answer my question. What are you looking for? The things you list can all be there. Often are. You seem to think you deserve better.

All this stuff seems to me like people who have been spoiled by previous leagues being too generous. Here you are at about 5 days into a league and you're already complaining that you can't get everything you want.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Perhaps you should read what I said again as if you can't understand the value in those items and the fact that I'm not asking for everything within the first week then I lack the crayons to explain it further.

The investment does not match the reward. If you invest nothing and get the same loot pool as somebody who invests 5x, 10x or 100x more then how is that an engaging league mechanic? As you say you can already get all those items I have stated, and that is exactly my point. Why invest when we can already get it?

I think what I'm trying to say is that the ritual mechanic involves random chance. You are trying to make it more deterministic. The fact of the matter is that the top 1% of players will SAVAGELY abuse any sort of deterministic method of increasing rewards. Then promptly all the little fanboys of the streamers will copy them 101% and then guess what. GGG will have to nerf the deterministic system to account for that.

That's just my theory on why you don't want these systems to be deterministic like that. Remember this is not about getting what you deserve to have based on your skill level. In games like this the best you can do is weight the probability into your favor and that's exactly what the current system is doing. Continuous good habits will predispose you to better outcomes OVER TIME.

You're not supposed to have any more power than that to determine what you're going to get the drop for you.

This is a fair point, however the top % of players are considered those who have killed Uber Elder. For anybody that plays a decent amount that is an achievable goal. A very very large proportion of players stop playing when they get to maps.

Risk vs Reward gameplay is the most enjoyable. I understand what you are saying and it makes sense.

Yet look at Empyrean and his guys, they see more currency in one map then most people will see in an entire league. I don't sit here saying hey that should be what everybody gets... They invest heavily into that and are rewarded for it. Which is why they play Delerium as that league rewards investment and capability. There is nothing wrong with that and the top players are always going to find ways to abuse systems that is unavoidable.

Yes, we are just running Rituals as is alc and go with the occasional scarabs etc and have had very good Rituals and very bad ones. Imho, there is no point beefing these Rituals up unless you are going for more Favour to buy that one lucky thing in a hundred. It feels like a short fall on the mechanic.

This thread took a very interesting course. The thread title couldn't have stated your position any more clearly, yet somehow poster after poster and OP have gotten bogged down in talking about whether the mechanic is rewarding enough.

The problem is when you say stuff like

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The Ritual rewards were complete garbage...

We are not saying make it rain exalts and mirrors... Just make them more exiting and worth running, even a single slot that can always give something of decent to high value.

you kinda contradict yourself, and make it about rewards. Which is going to trigger a lot of people's common sense because this is, once again, the most rewarding league mechanic they've ever put out. Adding more and better and guaranteed loot when using a Ritual Device thingy doesn't seem like the right 'fix' to this 'problem'

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Which is why I say it's not a problem. It's quite ok that it scales 'wide' and not 'deep'.

More monsters in your map and specifically in your Rituals = more tribute. You can already afford to buy the highest cost thing (unless you get 'jackpot' 6L, Fated Connections, exalt, etc) so more tribute allows you to go 'wide' and select 4-5 rewards instead of 1-2.

So I get it, compared to the way the atlas scales, this may feel week. But I don't really like the way the atlas scales. Because right now, if you want to juice your map at all, the system much too strongly encourages you to go full juice - and that is an obnoxious amount of trading and set up.

When Rituals don't scale like that, it means players like me and casual players don't get left out because they aren't jumping through 7 hoops of juicing the content. That's nice.

As others have said the entire map already scales with your bonus inputs - and the Rituals do too, I just think you're not giving the scaling enough credit - especially over the long run. You may not 'feel' it in any one given map but there can be no doubt that over 250 maps if you use the Ritual Devices and another player doesn't you're going to get much better results (obv removing outliers like a HH showing up).

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innervation wrote:

This thread took a very interesting course. The thread title couldn't have stated your position any more clearly, yet somehow poster after poster and OP have gotten bogged down in talking about whether the mechanic is rewarding enough.

The problem is when you say stuff like

"

The Ritual rewards were complete garbage...

We are not saying make it rain exalts and mirrors... Just make them more exiting and worth running, even a single slot that can always give something of decent to high value.

you kinda contradict yourself, and make it about rewards. Which is going to trigger a lot of people's common sense because this is, once again, the most rewarding league mechanic they've ever put out. Adding more and better and guaranteed loot when using a Ritual Device thingy doesn't seem like the right 'fix' to this 'problem'

~

Which is why I say it's not a problem. It's quite ok that it scales 'wide' and not 'deep'.

More monsters in your map and specifically in your Rituals = more tribute. You can already afford to buy the highest cost thing (unless you get 'jackpot' 6L, Fated Connections, exalt, etc) so more tribute allows you to go 'wide' and select 4-5 rewards instead of 1-2.

So I get it, compared to the way the atlas scales, this may feel week. But I don't really like the way the atlas scales. Because right now, if you want to juice your map at all, the system much too strongly encourages you to go full juice - and that is an obnoxious amount of trading and set up.

When Rituals don't scale like that, it means players like me and casual players don't get left out because they aren't jumping through 7 hoops of juicing the content. That's nice.

As others have said the entire map already scales with your bonus inputs - and the Rituals do too, I just think you're not giving the scaling enough credit - especially over the long run. You may not 'feel' it in any one given map but there can be no doubt that over 250 maps if you use the Ritual Devices and another player doesn't you're going to get much better results (obv removing outliers like a HH showing up).

You said it my man. That's what I was trying to say.

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innervation wrote:

This thread took a very interesting course. The thread title couldn't have stated your position any more clearly, yet somehow poster after poster and OP have gotten bogged down in talking about whether the mechanic is rewarding enough.

The problem is when you say stuff like

"

The Ritual rewards were complete garbage...

We are not saying make it rain exalts and mirrors... Just make them more exiting and worth running, even a single slot that can always give something of decent to high value.

you kinda contradict yourself, and make it about rewards. Which is going to trigger a lot of people's common sense because this is, once again, the most rewarding league mechanic they've ever put out. Adding more and better and guaranteed loot when using a Ritual Device thingy doesn't seem like the right 'fix' to this 'problem'

~

Which is why I say it's not a problem. It's quite ok that it scales 'wide' and not 'deep'.

More monsters in your map and specifically in your Rituals = more tribute. You can already afford to buy the highest cost thing (unless you get 'jackpot' 6L, Fated Connections, exalt, etc) so more tribute allows you to go 'wide' and select 4-5 rewards instead of 1-2.

So I get it, compared to the way the atlas scales, this may feel week. But I don't really like the way the atlas scales. Because right now, if you want to juice your map at all, the system much too strongly encourages you to go full juice - and that is an obnoxious amount of trading and set up.

When Rituals don't scale like that, it means players like me and casual players don't get left out because they aren't jumping through 7 hoops of juicing the content. That's nice.

As others have said the entire map already scales with your bonus inputs - and the Rituals do too, I just think you're not giving the scaling enough credit - especially over the long run. You may not 'feel' it in any one given map but there can be no doubt that over 250 maps if you use the Ritual Devices and another player doesn't you're going to get much better results (obv removing outliers like a HH showing up).

Through our own testing, we have run 10 sets of 3 fully juiced Ritual maps. That is 3 juiced up pack size bosses of Tier 15/16 in another tier 15/16 map. So that is 4 bosses in a Ritual with pack size and juiced. By juiced I mean, sextants, heavily corrupted mpas, conquerer influenced and Delerium Orbed ( at least 2 ) and mastered maps. This represents a reasonable amount of investment in time and currency. Roughly around 5ex investment spanning 50 odd maps.

The total in rewards from these Rituals ONLY would be around 10-15 Chaos.


We ran a single conquerer map, this is a free map from Zana. Basically a clean white map with zero mods and zero investment to defeat a conquerer. ZERO investment.

From Ritual ONLY we found a Maloney Quiver, sold for 6ex 70c.


I fully understand that this is a highly profitable league, I enjoy the league and am having fun. I like that it allows casual players and less invested players the ability to compete and compare loot with those players who are at the top % bracket, it levels the playing field which is great for the game and economy.

However, for those who wish to push the limit there is an extremely tight cage around that ability with this mechanic. It is a counter intuitive method when you consider the amount of league content that already rewards investment, such as Heist and Delerium.

Now the obvious argument is then go invest in those leagues and be happy. Sure I could do that, or I could test the league mechanic as I am in a position to do so and comment on it based on what we know from trial and error.

The reward scaling is flipped. For zero investment, and I mean zero you can earn rewards that high level players can earn. Yes this is a profitable league, but it also feels like a lazy one.

We have changed our view on scaling as it seems people don't understand what we are saying. So with that said the vessels should allow you to adjust the loot pool, in that if you add specific bosses such as a fire related boss than it should shift the loot towards being fire related. Cold boss for cold etc etc. This would allow more focused Ritual farming whilst maintaining the high level of RNG involved.

As is, don't waste your currency on juicing Rituals, just run rinse repeat and you will make bank.

I agree with the poster who suggested Ritual scales wide rather than deep (i.e. more rewards rather than "better" rewards).

Plus, I don't need every league mechanic or every game mechanic to scale with investment.

It's cool that we can juice maps and get better rewards, but it also starts to feel obligatory. There are plenty of existing game mechanics that reward investment, it doesn't have to be ubiquitous.

If rewarding investment was ubiquitous throughout all aspects of the game, you'd probably see people complain that they didn't get that first lucky drop that allows them to ride the juice train and escape the ghetto.

Like my opinion is that Ritual just take too much time and dont reward you enough. It locks you into place so you cant do ritual and complete the map.
Delirium is just better version of ritual it adds monsters and difficulty and you can complete map while fighting delirium so when you have good build it dont slow you down like ritual and you even get better loot. I like ritual but it needs buff.

Delirium required you to backtrack, this doesn't - all your items are safely stored. There can't be any comparison.

Far as rewards go, we've reached a point where emblems and scarabs are super cheap simply because there are so many of them. Its getting ridiculous.

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relik155 wrote:

Run in a two man group, however we are always juicing up our maps as high as we can. Using scarabs, delerium orbs etc etc. Sure they can be abit RIP but it is great fun to do. The Rituals are a great addition and they feel fun, however the rewards simply don't scale at all to the difficulty of the content being run.

We have also used 3 Tier 15/16 bosses captured in Ritual Vessels and ran another Tier 16 juiced map multiple times. The Ritual rewards were complete garbage, as in we are taking armourer scraps as rewards which is incredibly deflating when you put so much effort into buffing up the Rituals to give max rewards.

We are not saying make it rain exalts and mirrors... Just make them more exiting and worth running, even a single slot that can always give something of decent to high value.

Rituals are fun but don't bother buffing them up with vessels as they just don't scale. Sure results may vary but that is the problem, the point of the vessels is to reduce the RNG aspect?

I didnt had a single good item after doing almost every ritual from start to level 85 right now in tier 10 maps. I did some heist and i instantly felt the difference.
I like the system about options but the options are 9/10 times just trash items or currency.

Sometimes 1/2 chaos wohoooo .....
Even with rerolls i get crap. Most of the time i cant even reroll because the amount is to low despite finishing 4 rituals in tier 10 maps. I like the mechanic but this is purely RNG so most of the time it feels like iam doing these rituals for nothing while wasting a lot of time in them.
The rituals are pretty time consuming but the rewards you get are laughable.
Gonna skip this mechanic.

I am also experiencing the same as you and i am glad i am not the only one, please consider leaving feedback in my thread about changing the group system, it would be nice if other players gave some even if they don't agree with my views.

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3024929

It's basically the model of Diablo 3's great seperated looting system but without the major advantages that groups get when they swap and trade loot.

I want lonewolves and groups to be on par while grouping being worth doing and encouraged.

A decrease in loot for each member's loot instance depending on party size is what i think will balance trading gear in a party.

Let me know what you think!