Real Money Auction House RMAH for poe

"

AgentDave wrote:

Scamming is fraud. Selling items is not fraud. It's not illegal.

I have plenty of ethics - It's very easy in insurance (where you handle people's credit card information, social security numbers, birthdates, and so on) to be tempted - which is why I am constantly taking ethics classes (some of which are required by the state to keep my license), discussing the finer points as they apply to my job with my bosses, and so on. as I mentioned previously, I've never bought or sold anything in a game with real money.

Pointing out that EULAs have been ruled (wait for it) unethical (after all, that's the central reasons that contracts of adhesion are harder to enforce - because it is an abuse of power when one party has all the power.) is hardly encouraging people to ignore them - the examples I linked had nothing to do with RMAH, selling digital objects, etc - they were essentially copywrite and implied warrenty arguements.

Well I am glad you believe yourself to have strong ethic's. Many believe insurer's or those in the bussiness simply learn ethics to better understand how to break them. Considering the countless abuses that have happened with insurer's.
But I feel ya.

"

AgentDave wrote:

Pointing out that EULAs have been ruled (wait for it) unethical

You make it seem very cut and dry.
Can we please have a link to these case's you have been looking at in your state or where-ever. I would love to read it over. As I have an easier time finding cases where people have been fisted by an EULA on the interwebz.

You keep going back to this "Unethical ruleing" due to the contract being writen out by the rights holder's only.

I decided to have alittle look at the much beloved Wikipedia..again.... For alittle insight into EULA's and the much loved contracts of adhesion so we can bring some much needed ethical love your way Dave :) .

EULA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement

Standard Adhesion Contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesion_contract


Please all go and read them before we continue because what our very well educated insurance friend here cannot understand, is his own level of complexity.(Not a bad thing might I add in his line of work :)

"Possession is nine-tenths of the law" and after reviewing a few of the cases, where people have fought off the EULA, I have concluded that it cannot be fought off in the case of a free game such as PoE!!!!! Sweeeeetttttttt.

Shrink-wrap and click-wrap licenses

"license's were not provided at the time of purchase" Is the key arguement here that everyone has escaped on. And I totaly agree that has been un-ethical. So congrats, you win on that.

Unfortunatly...PoE is a Free Game...No purchase...No way around that... The right's holder....retains all the power.
Dam.....
That one is hard to get past. :)

-----

Moving on.... Contract of adhesion....

"are not illegal per se, there exists a very real possibility for unconscionability."


So, what isnt fair about a "free games" EULA that specify's "Not to sell our property to anyone else" In simple terms and then banning a player and seeking fair reperations(And for heaven's sake, I do not want to go into the calculations for determining what "Fair reperations means!!!! as it is the ultimate in nit picking) or punishment for breaching it.

Hmmm lets see ......Nothing :).

Soooo PoE would be legaly fine makeing a contract of adhesion/EULA that is reasonable/fair to everyone.

And then legaly fisting some "cheater's" aka "People who breach the EULA", this is going to be fun :)


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But yea....I see where alot of these other games have gone wrong. I hope Path Of Exile manages to leverage this correctly.

Because from the looks of it....Cheaters are gonna get roled by a EULA made by PoE. If they want to.

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"

AgentDave wrote:

Scamming is fraud. Selling items is not fraud. It's not illegal.

I think we have established this point as of now.

"Scamming is fraud. Selling items(That belong to you) is not fraud(If condoned). It's not illegal(and its not exactly legal either and you can but not always be punished for it, Except in case's such as PoE :)"

------------

I still repeat.

Was this nit-picking nessasary?.

We all know its a douch-bag thing to do, when you have been told not to sell other's shiz.

And this is nit-picking at the highest level.




PEACE!.

300TH COMMENT WOOT!!!!!!!!!!.

"

Skivverus wrote:

"

Karnos wrote:

By buying it, you are taking it away from someone else, the net change in power is zero.

It's a little more complicated than that, because of how gear slots work, and the fact that no matter how much of a no-lifer you are, it's impossible to spend more than 24 hours a day playing the game, while there is no such natural cap on the amount of money one can spend.

One player, electing to buy (or trade for) all their items, can consolidate the most powerful equipment from half a dozen other people (never mind the hundreds to thousands who either weren't selling or didn't have the really high-end stuff). The average power may not have changed, but the variance most certainly has. And that variance can then be used by the trader to farm (or progress) that much faster.

This results in a feedback loop, where those who advance the fastest and are the most powerful are the ones who both buy their equipment (early and often) and spend a lot of time in the game. Anyone attempting to compete without spending both is at a serious disadvantage, and likely to fall behind depending on how wide the discrepancy is between "good" and "godly" gear.

That is the danger of allowing players to trade real money for gear.

+1 - Well explaining the consequences of RMAH.

You cant spend money, and more time.
Welcome to the unfair world

You can spend money, but not time.
Spend more to make it faster. Sky is your limit!

You cant spend money, but time
Farm 18 hours a day, 7 days a week. U still have some hope.

You want earn money.
Maybe you should start equip yourself with some high quality farming equipment, and start working!

Many player here acknowledge the Important of equipment in this game. When i can direct shopping for equipment i like, what the meaning of Alchemy Orbs / regal....

Login, Shopping, PVP some poor player.. Finish the game.

"

aaricia wrote:

"

xxnoob wrote:

This thread and any other RMAH thread should just be moved to Offtopic because the devs already stated that P2W systems like the RMAH will not be part of PoE.

By the same logic, any discussion on the usefulness of the passive skill tree should be off-topic because the decision of having a passive tree has been made ? what about the fact that no on-the-fly respec of the passive skill is allowed ? is that off-topic too ?

This is a beta and GGG wants feedback from the user base. Trading, AH, RMAH, passive tree all aspects of the game is up for discussion and feedback.

This is a thread discussing one of the most important aspect of AARPG which is loot and how do you trade loot. Are you going to trade via primitive channel spamming ? or a centralized dealing area like an AH ? or via 3rd party site ? Which currency is going to be used ? in-game currency ? orbs ? real money ?

I dont see how a discussion of all this is off-topic ?

This is basically a core aspect of the game and I am sure GGG and every developper is interested in all user opinions expressed here.

No that doesn't make any fucking sense.

"

tachi203 wrote:

Well I am glad you believe yourself to have strong ethic's. Many believe insurer's or those in the bussiness simply learn ethics to better understand how to break them. Considering the countless abuses that have happened with insurer's.
But I feel ya.

Yes, it’s very tempting for people in general, especially when the economy is the way that it is, to do something unethical. Particularly people who spend all day handling sensitive information and large amounts of money.

Right now, I work for a premium-finance company (If you’re not familiar with the concept, we basically give you a loan for your insurance, because not all companies do pay plans, then if you don’t pay us, we have the power to cancel your insurance and get the money that would have been refunded to you (but it was our money to start anyway.) sent to us instead.).

I don’t think a month has gone by where some agent hasn’t stolen 10’s of thousands of dollars.

Then again, a lot of the negative rep of insurance agents probably comes as much from people who don’t bother to read what they’re buying, or who feel that they got “ripped off” if they never made a claim, because what were they paying for if we never had to pay them something for something?

"

tachi203 wrote:

"

AgentDave wrote:

Pointing out that EULAs have been ruled (wait for it) unethical

You make it seem very cut and dry.
(…)

EULA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/End-user_license_agreement

Standard Adhesion Contract
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adhesion_contract


Please all go and read them before we continue
(…)
"license's were not provided at the time of purchase" Is the key arguement here that everyone has escaped on. And I totaly agree that has been un-ethical. So congrats, you win on that.

I did read them, in fact, I linked to the EULA article a few pages back. The first one highlighted, there were licenses, there was just an implied warrenty when the software company and the 3rd party reseller were negotiating. Regardless, you’re right, none of the cases I’ve referenced specifically addresses sales of 3rd party items.

"

tachi203 wrote:

Unfortunatly...PoE is a Free Game...No purchase...No way around that... The right's holder....retains all the power.
Dam.....
That one is hard to get past. :)

-----

Moving on.... Contract of adhesion....

"are not illegal per se, there exists a very real possibility for unconscionability."


So, what isnt fair about a "free games" EULA that specify's "Not to sell our property to anyone else" In simple terms and then banning a player and seeking fair reperations(And for heaven's sake, I do not want to go into the calculations for determining what "Fair reperations means!!!! as it is the ultimate in nit picking) or punishment for breaching it.

Hmmm lets see ......Nothing :).

Soooo PoE would be legaly fine makeing a contract of adhesion/EULA that is reasonable/fair to everyone.

And then legaly fisting some "cheater's" aka "People who breach the EULA", this is going to be fun :)

“very real possibility of unconscionability”. Unconscionability is a big word which means… “unethical(ness)”.

That right there stops you dead in the water – the game company doesn’t automatically have the ethical high ground. As is often the case in ethics, there are shades of gray. It may be right, it may be wrong, it may be situational (Something is always right or wrong, but often more information is needed to make that decision…)

"

tachi203 wrote:

"

AgentDave wrote:

Scamming is fraud. Selling items is not fraud. It's not illegal.

I think we have established this point as of now.

"Scamming is fraud. Selling items(That belong to you) is not fraud(If condoned). It's not illegal(and its not exactly legal either and you can but not always be punished for it, Except in case's such as PoE :)"

No, no “if condoned” about it – something which is punishable in a civil court is not illegal. It may make you liable, but it’s not *illegal*. In the US, car accidents, despite your ability to sue the pants off of someone for an injury received, are civil matters. In Mexico, they are both criminal and civil matters – even if the other party isn’t injured or interested in trying to sue you, you can still be fined and/or go to jail. No one has ever gone to jail for selling digital items. And there's even a question if it's punishable in a civil court - eBay (and the like) don't pull items because they agree it's "wrong" persay, but because they don't want the hassle of dealing with every individual situation of every individual posting, and who posted it, and why, and what the legallese of the EULA that person may or may not have accepted says...


I'll do some research on other court cases where the EULA has been ruled unenforcible.

some more EULA case references (You may have to scan, as some of these pages include broader topics):

http://www.danataschner.com/first_sale_doctrine.html

A highlight from that one:

"This leaves the copyright holder, through the terms of the EULA and TOS that many software and music companies favor in order to bypass section 109, liable for Clayton Act violations through the fact that they claim that the purchase of the software or music is not a purchase and that they end user does not own the software but has rights to use it, thus engaging in other acts or practice in the nature of rental or lease. While many states have changed their contract laws so that a sale of software is defined under the UCC, in response to UCITA through so called Anti-UCITA bills, so a purchase of software is a sale under the UCC at the point of purchase, thus the purchuser owns the software at the time of purchase and the EULA terms imposed after the sale, if not disclosed prior to the sale, are unenforcebale, other states have not. "

The ENTIRE EULA (/TOS) is unenforcable if it is not disclosed prior to sale (in certain states with Anti UCITA bills). Now, since PoE is "free", this particular game would have a question of if a sale occurs - is that when I buy MT points? When I download the game? Never? When I spend MT points? (Non-lawyer opinion here: It might not be a bad idea to make people accept the TOS/EULA before purchasing points, although this would still leave a gray area if someone never purchased points.)


Of course, these references are US cases - Since GGG is a NZ company, it would be as likely to go to court there as here (which, by the way, is a deterent for GGG to ever attempt to sue someone, you're being a little unrealistic thinking GGG is going to hire a lawyer cross-seas to sue Timmy for selling a few Regal Orbs.)

Zamos responded on Jan 3, 2005 by countersuing Microsoft with Clayton Act charges and further charged that, "Microsoft purposely established and maintained a sales and distribution system whereby rightful rejection and return of merchandise that is substantially non-conforming is either impossible or practically impossible due to the ineptness of its employees, unconscionable policies malicious intent and deceptive practices," thus engaging in fraud and violating the Consumer Sales Practice Act.

This is for zeto, who earlier said something along the lines of "You can always return it", highlighting that it's not that easy.

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/09/the-end-of-used-major-ruling-upholds-tough-software-licenses.ars

This is an article saying that EULAs are pretty ironclad. Clearly I disagree, but it would be unethical for me to fail to present an opposing viewpoint I found in my research.

http://www.gamepolitics.com/category/topics/eula

Here's a whole website dealing with EULAs, games, and recent political or legal "news" regarding them. Quite alot of information, quite alot of interesting stuff there.

"

xxnoob wrote:

"

aaricia wrote:

"

xxnoob wrote:

This thread and any other RMAH thread should just be moved to Offtopic because the devs already stated that P2W systems like the RMAH will not be part of PoE.

By the same logic, any discussion on the usefulness of the passive skill tree should be off-topic because the decision of having a passive tree has been made ? what about the fact that no on-the-fly respec of the passive skill is allowed ? is that off-topic too ?

This is a beta and GGG wants feedback from the user base. Trading, AH, RMAH, passive tree all aspects of the game is up for discussion and feedback.

This is a thread discussing one of the most important aspect of AARPG which is loot and how do you trade loot. Are you going to trade via primitive channel spamming ? or a centralized dealing area like an AH ? or via 3rd party site ? Which currency is going to be used ? in-game currency ? orbs ? real money ?

I dont see how a discussion of all this is off-topic ?

This is basically a core aspect of the game and I am sure GGG and every developper is interested in all user opinions expressed here.

No that doesn't make any fucking sense.

It does my friend.. RMAH is on the table already.. you can't just rule it out..Developers plans are changing based on player's demand .. it's good strategy.. I am not saying there is demand for RMAH.. but it could change in the future. RMAH was never really tested in form Blizzard is introducing it but I believe..over time..many will accept it as viable platform for trading. And in the future..it may be one of the core parts of these games..who knows.

Still don't see why is wrong to discuss this option already.

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

It does my friend.. RMAH is on the table already.. you can't just rule it out..Developers plans are changing based on player's demand .. it's good strategy.. I am not saying there is demand for RMAH.. but it could change in the future. RMAH was never really tested in form Blizzard is introducing it but I believe..over time..many will accept it as viable platform for trading. And in the future..it may be one of the core parts of these games..who knows.

Still don't see why is wrong to discuss this option already.

Except it isn't. Not in PoE anyways, which is what General Discussion is for, PoE.

OFFTOPIC

"

xxnoob wrote:

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

It does my friend.. RMAH is on the table already.. you can't just rule it out..Developers plans are changing based on player's demand .. it's good strategy.. I am not saying there is demand for RMAH.. but it could change in the future. RMAH was never really tested in form Blizzard is introducing it but I believe..over time..many will accept it as viable platform for trading. And in the future..it may be one of the core parts of these games..who knows.

Still don't see why is wrong to discuss this option already.

Except it isn't. Not in PoE anyways, which is what General Discussion is for, PoE.

OFFTOPIC

As long as it stays in General, I guess. this topic has something with PoE after all .. :)

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

"

xxnoob wrote:

"

ManiaCCC wrote:

It does my friend.. RMAH is on the table already.. you can't just rule it out..Developers plans are changing based on player's demand .. it's good strategy.. I am not saying there is demand for RMAH.. but it could change in the future. RMAH was never really tested in form Blizzard is introducing it but I believe..over time..many will accept it as viable platform for trading. And in the future..it may be one of the core parts of these games..who knows.

Still don't see why is wrong to discuss this option already.

Except it isn't. Not in PoE anyways, which is what General Discussion is for, PoE.

OFFTOPIC

As long as it stays in General, I guess. this topic has something with PoE after all .. :)

Or not.

"

xxnoob wrote:

No that doesn't make any fucking sense.

You are entitled to your opinion or what you can/want to understand.

Others have differing opinions or may want to understand other things.

The fact that there are differing and diverse viewpoints on a fundamental part of the game is precisely why the thread is on-topic, valuable feedback and interesting to follow for developers.

Sometimes in life it is wise to try to listen to and appreciate the position of others not thinking the same way as you or having differing viewpoints. It may help you understand the world better.