Heist...Im out again !

"

Gravel86 wrote:

Heist is yet another one that won't change the mapping at all. It just adds a small peice of side content to distract from the monotone mapping experience. It is not a real alternative.

"

Exile009 wrote:

"

Izrakhan wrote:

You first have to know what your product is and what your target audience is. I view the PoE audience as ARPG fans who want a large grind to work towards a worthy end goal. I think the game suffers for not having engaging P2P and I think leagues that add more puzzle elements do it no favors.

I implore the devs to do their best to create a P2P league, with rewards and ladderboards. Bring out all the P2P ideas as that is what the game needs the most IMO.

These arguments are by now so old and repetitive that I can just recycle some of my old answers -

"

Exile009 wrote:

People who want endless Breach-clones cos they've grown so jaded with the core game that they need a new coat of paint on their monsters every 3 months to make their playtime feel fresh again. They'll frequently be heard crying, "this is an ARPG! We play to kill things and get loot!!" never noting the fact that there's no shortage of that in the game as is. You'd think that all they'd done in Harvest league was growing their garden and trading, no maps, Delve, etc. They'll act like they're starved of their preferred type of gameplay just cos the league mechanic isn't solely about doing that (never mind that it always involves more killing and loot, just not only that), because the idea of there being something for any other kind of player of this game is an affront to their self-identity as 'core ARPG gamerz' (tm).

"

Exile009 wrote:

One of the earliest game expansions they ever did was for PvP, and it was only the first step. But if you think the response to Harvest was negative, you perhaps weren't around for that patch. Even today focusing more on PvP is controversial - go ahead and make a thread suggesting it and see the response (though admittedly there's a few more approving voices nowadays since the size of the community itself has grown). They haven't left PvP to wither because they don't want to see it, they've abandoned it because the community response to it when they did try it was so icy that they decided it wasn't a good idea. So if you want GGG to push more PvP, it's not them you need to address, but your fellow players, cos they're the reason you haven't already got your wish.

Personally I've no issue with them expanding PvP support. But it's not only the devs fault we haven't got that yet. And if you think a full-on PvP league will fly with the community, oh boy have I got news for you. Seriously, make the post here pushing for it, see how well it flies with your fellow players.

"

Izrakhan wrote:

First point when you spend resources on a new mechanic that your core audience isn't interested in you may as well be flushing your cash down the toilet. Who is this for if not the core audience? Doesn't it therefore make sense to know what they want? How did the later releases differ from the earlier releases? Why do people prefer Breach and Delve over Blight, Betrayal and Harvest?

It seems foolish to me to say we'll just let creative passions wander at the cost of alienating the core audience because you run the risk of losing what you have.

Second point I didn't say PvP. I said P2P. PvP is a part of P2P but not all of it. Dark Souls did very well on the P2P front. Have incentives for P2P built into the game in that sense so that people will find more reason to seek out others. Instead of going to the well over and over again hoping to find that PvE mechanic that makes people feel like they did during Delve.

"

Gravel86 wrote:

"

Phrazz wrote:

"

Gravel86 wrote:

While you are 100% correct POE needs such players to keep the lights on and pay the bills.
Lest we not forget that this is not a 4x strategy game. This is an ARPG focus on the A since there are little to nil real RPG elements. And as such it is meant to cater to the people that want to just turn the game on and play it, and have fun mashing keys and watching monster explode.

An I know I just discribed games like Torch Light and Diablo but thats because they are in the same genre. POE not only expects far more out of its players in terms of building a character but it also obfuscates far more of the basic infomation that other games in the genre do, making things needlessly unclear.

An easy example of this I like to use is this - Essence, Fosil, Beast recipe, alchemy and the Harvest Bench from last league all say on them the exact same thing, - change an item into a rare item. Yet they are quite different from each other.

The game as a whole has (and will always have) a solid focus on the "A". No matter what they add, the focus will be there. Harvest focused on crafting. What does crafting do? Improve your gear to be able to kill more/faster. What does Heist do? Let you loot a lot of loot, while being swarmed by monsters afterwards, with a solid focus on the "A". Hell, it even give you some control over how much "A" you want.

Even though the game needs its "A"-focus, that doesn't mean that every league and every addition have to be "more monsters".

And yes, you are right. The game probably needs those players too. And they are more than capable of skipping the content they deem "too complex", and focus on what they know and like.

My point was really that they should't feel like second class citizens for not wanting to roll the RNG dice and craft in an ARPG. The focus should be loot and action. The best loot in the game should be droped on the ground not crafted.
Crafting should be at most a way to augment drops.

When has there ever been a league where the focus was not spamming currency to craft the items you want? A league where killing monsters and looting them and using the items they drop was the focus?

"

Vendetta wrote:

Diablo II a game that lasted 12 years and people still play it, and inspired POE as a whole

"

Phrazz wrote:

Well, again; I have to disagree. What you are (more or less) saying here, is that every league should be very 'light' on mechanics, focusing on more 'fun', and in you eyes, 'fun' is not deep/new/different gameplay mechanics?

Anyhow, GGG knows very well what they are doing. They know they have to capture the interest, focus and curiosity of players that have played PoE for years. A new monster or pack here and there, dropping some new loot just aren't enough for a lot of players to sink their teeth into. There are just so many ways they can make a boss different. There are just so many ways they can make a pack feel different. But there are a lot of ways to make gameplay feel different.

Now, do GGG experiment? Yes, from time to time they do. And I love that it's room for that here. I love that one league feels totally different from another, and for that to be possible, they need to think beyond just more monsters and more loot. They need to make every league FEEL different.

'Fun' for me IS new systems to figure out. New gameplay to sink my teeth into. New shit to learn.

"

Exile009 wrote:

"

Izrakhan wrote:

First point when you spend resources on a new mechanic that your core audience isn't interested in you may as well be flushing your cash down the toilet. Who is this for if not the core audience? Doesn't it therefore make sense to know what they want? How did the later releases differ from the earlier releases? Why do people prefer Breach and Delve over Blight, Betrayal and Harvest?

It seems foolish to me to say we'll just let creative passions wander at the cost of alienating the core audience because you run the risk of losing what you have.

Second point I didn't say PvP. I said P2P. PvP is a part of P2P but not all of it. Dark Souls did very well on the P2P front. Have incentives for P2P built into the game in that sense so that people will find more reason to seek out others. Instead of going to the well over and over again hoping to find that PvE mechanic that makes people feel like they did during Delve.

I notice you completely skipped my third point, which is revealing. Specifically of your lack of interest in creative expansion. Sorry to break it to you, but that's not how creatives like game designers and the like think. And you wouldn't have any of the game genres you might or might not currently like, save for basic ones like puzzles or digital versions of real world board games, if they did think as narrowly as you seem to want them to. Yes, ARPGs wouldn't exist either - they were once a game design innovation too.

I'll let GGG worry about their cash flow. They seem solvent enough so far. They know their revenue better than either of us, so don't pretend you're arguing for their benefit rather than your own. As for the 'core audience', the core audience is already well served by the core game. It's just that some members of said 'core audience' don't seem to recognize that fact. You want an ARPG, but don't seem to realize you already have it. You don't expand by further providing what you're already plentifully providing to the same people you've already provided for.

And then, right after waxing on about the 'core audience', you push again for your P2P / PvP / whatever you want to label it league. Talk about hypocritical, this just reveals that it isn't the 'core audience' you're concerned about, or indeed any audience, just your own desires. Cos the 'core audience' of this game has expressed itself on that front plenty already. Whatever you want to label it, I asked you to make that thread and try to convince people of whatever your idea of a P2P league is and see how it goes, instead of pretending you already represent and have the 'core audience' on your side. So go on. Make your case, for whatever sort of P2P league you're looking for. See how much uptake it gets. I predict it'll either get several pages of responses of which many will be negative, or it'll get maybe just a couple positive responses but be ignored by everyone else and so sink ignominiously down to the bottom of GD. But who knows? Maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe you will get a lot of support. Suits me fine either way, since I've no issues with expanding PvP (or P2P, whatever it is you're after) anyway. But we won't know until you do it. Your move.