Stop protecting the perpetrators

I just posted a scammer warning with proof in the forums and mere moments later a mod removed the name and all the proof from the post.

Reasoning

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for causing harm to the reputation of others. In the future, please remember to abide by our Code of Conduct so that further moderation is not taken.

I find that reasoning stupid.

The harm to the reputation of a scammer is second to the well-being of decent people who should not fall for that scammer anymore, that's the whole point of the warning.

So please change your code of conduct to allow PSA warnings about scammers with valid proof provided.
You just enable the scammers to find even more victims that way.
Your priority should not be protecting the perpetrator but any possible victims.

Thank you.

P.S. I am aware of the point of not calling someone out in general WITHOUT PROOF. That makes all the difference though. When there's proof it should absolutely be allowed and even encouraged.

So then, should I make a few posts about how you scammed me? With your name right up in the title of the threads for everyone to see? Does that sound fair to you? Since you think the reasoning is so stupid, I don't see why you'd have a problem with that.

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Xavathos wrote:

So then, should I make a few posts about how you scammed me? With your name right up in the title of the threads for everyone to see? Does that sound fair to you? Since you think the reasoning is so stupid, I don't see why you'd have a problem with that.

I love how you entirely ignored the main important part: PROOF.
Come on, man. You're better than that.

If you post baseless accusations, they should stay forbidden and they should get removed asap, OBVIOUSLY.

If you have credible and valid PROOF of me scamming you, then I say by all means go ahead and warn people about me so they don't fall for me, too :)


I hope you do understand the distinction.

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Wissle wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

So then, should I make a few posts about how you scammed me? With your name right up in the title of the threads for everyone to see? Does that sound fair to you? Since you think the reasoning is so stupid, I don't see why you'd have a problem with that.

I love how you entirely ignored the main important part: PROOF.
Come on, man. You're better than that.

If you post baseless accusations, they should stay forbidden and they should get removed asap, OBVIOUSLY.

If you have credible and valid PROOF of me scamming you, then I say by all means go ahead and warn people about me so they don't fall for me, too :)


I hope you do understand the distinction.

Proof of what? That a trade went through? For all I know you could be friends pulling a prank or you could be trying to lure him into getting banned. A short video of a select moment (your selection) doesn't prove anything. In short, I don't know you or him or either of your motives or intentions and neither does anyone else on this forum, so it serves no purpose other than making someone look bad, deserved or not.

It is in fact you, that will have to do a lot better than that.


To further elaborate on this for you: Things can be discussed outside the game, real life, Discord, or whatever other means, which may explain what you see on the video, while someone without knowledge of that would draw the wrong conclusion pretty easily. There is also not a set "value" for things in POE. An empower 4 is only worth 6ex, because that is what people are willing to shell out for it. The gem itself has no real value. So who is to say that the price paid for the item received is actually by definition, a scam?

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but I'm doing so because it's important to understand that what you're asking for will lead to a lot more chaos and confusion than just having the rules set the way they are and sticking by them.

And yes, I've been there, I know what it feels like.

Like it or not, the bottom line is this: You fucked up, so own up to your mistakes and move on.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Wissle wrote:

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Xavathos wrote:

So then, should I make a few posts about how you scammed me? With your name right up in the title of the threads for everyone to see? Does that sound fair to you? Since you think the reasoning is so stupid, I don't see why you'd have a problem with that.

I love how you entirely ignored the main important part: PROOF.
Come on, man. You're better than that.

If you post baseless accusations, they should stay forbidden and they should get removed asap, OBVIOUSLY.

If you have credible and valid PROOF of me scamming you, then I say by all means go ahead and warn people about me so they don't fall for me, too :)


I hope you do understand the distinction.

Proof of what? That a trade went through? For all I know you could be friends pulling a prank or you could be trying to lure him into getting banned. A short video of a select moment (your selection) doesn't prove anything. In short, I don't know you or him or either of your motives or intentions and neither does anyone else on this forum, so it serves no purpose other than making someone look bad, deserved or not.

It is in fact you, that will have to do a lot better than that.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now, because you didn't see the actual video.

When I talk about proof, I mean valid proof.
If there's "proof" that proves nothing then that's libel and/or slander and being illegal it's actually much more serious than scamming in a game, so I'm not sure if too many people would risk doing that.

If that happens then the one with the "proof" will possibly be the one in big trouble instead of the "scammer".

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Wissle wrote:

I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now, because you didn't see the actual video.

When I talk about proof, I mean valid proof.
If there's "proof" that proves nothing then that's libel and/or slander and being illegal it's actually much more serious than scamming in a game, so I'm not sure if too many people would risk doing that.

If that happens then the one with the "proof" will possibly be the one in big trouble instead of the "scammer".

So I'm just supposed to take your word for it that the video you edited and put forward is real?

I'll give you an example: I have a friend who plays a lot and has a ton of currency every league. I don't have much time to play and he likes to help me out getting geared when I do, so he gives me a few ex or chaos to help me get going. But the thing is, when we play together, we're on voice chat, Discord, we don't talk in-game. So if I recorded that in-game and you saw me going into some dude's hideout and accept a bunch of currency from him without talking, what would be your first thought? RMT maybe? So, should I get banned now then? I didn't break any rules, but it would sure as hell look like it if someone posted a video like that.

This is just one example, I could give you so many where things are not as they seem. I know that you're probably not lying, I know there are lots of scammers around unfortunately, but you have to understand that when they accept one person's "proof" as being true without absolutely knowing it is and allow them to post about it freely, you open the doors for abuse, only this time, it isn't some petty currency orbs on the line, it's a player's reputation and account.

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Xavathos wrote:

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Wissle wrote:

I will give you the benefit of the doubt right now, because you didn't see the actual video.

When I talk about proof, I mean valid proof.
If there's "proof" that proves nothing then that's libel and/or slander and being illegal it's actually much more serious than scamming in a game, so I'm not sure if too many people would risk doing that.

If that happens then the one with the "proof" will possibly be the one in big trouble instead of the "scammer".

So I'm just supposed to take your word for it that the video you edited and put forward is real?

I'll give you an example: I have a friend who plays a lot and has a ton of currency every league. I don't have much time to play and he likes to help me out getting geared when I do, so he gives me a few ex or chaos to help me get going. But the thing is, when we play together, we're on voice chat, Discord, we don't talk in-game. So if I recorded that in-game and you saw me going into some dude's hideout and accept a bunch of currency from him without talking, what would be your first thought? RMT maybe? So, should I get banned now then? I didn't break any rules, but it would sure as hell look like it if someone posted a video like that.

This is just one example, I could give you so many where things are not as they seem. I know that you're probably not lying, I know there are lots of scammers around unfortunately, but you have to understand that when they accept one person's "proof" as being true without absolutely knowing it is and allow them to post about it freely, you open the doors for abuse, only this time, it isn't some petty currency orbs on the line, it's a player's reputation and account.

"So I'm just supposed to take your word for it that the video you edited and put forward is real?"
You VASTLY underestimate how hard it would be to fake such a video with ingame footage if you mean in terms of showing what happened.

Someone mentioned another scenario here that you're maybe alluding to, too

https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/2927649/page/1#p23457176

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Shagsbeard wrote:

here's another scenario... you and this guy get together and plan the whole thing. That lets you come here to the forum and play the victim, with "evidence". Others will read this an maybe pony up some coins for you.

A second order scam!

You can see why they don't allow stuff like this. Even if you're in the right. Even if you're impeccably honest. Allowing you to do it would also allow people to run the scam I described.

It comes down to this: They don't allow it.

and while I condede that this is a real possibility, the potential gains stand in no reasonable relations to the effort this requires. And if the two scammers work together like that then it's not like an innocent third party would get named or shamed and this is what this here is all about.
It would enable this kind of scam but it would make every other one harder. That sounds like a good trade to me.


Now, your example. This is one where the proof is obviously not enough. With no ingame exchange, there's nothing that indicates what happened, as you said.

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I could give you so many where things are not as they seem.

Innocent until proven guilty applies and if "proof" is found to be invalid all charges can be dropped. And depending on what exactly happened, the accuser can get in trouble instead.

So in your case the report would be dropped/discarded and your name is then cleared.
And I am well aware that this is to some extent paradise-think, this isn't going to work 100% all the time.
But I do feel it's much superior to the situation we have now where scammers can run rampant and warning people about them is a punishable offense ...

I don't know if anyone here remembers d2jsp from the Diablo 2 times.
There were trading forums too and there calling out scammers was allowed and appreciated and worked really well for the most part.
Of course there were people trying to abuse that, but the trust systems in place there worked against that really well.
When you had a good name and then someone accuses you of something without valid proof, then that was obviously just an attempt of a scam in the way you are afraid here.
But when there WAS valid proof, it helped the other traders there because they could then - and did - avoid the scammer.

What you fail to understand is that scammers are not allowed to run rampant, as you put it. You can report them to GGG and they do, as you've just personally found out, take action against them.

What you cannot do is name and shame these people on these forums. You already know why, so I don't understand why you can't accept it and move on with your life. Naming a scammer doesn't protect anyone from his actions. How many players go onto a trade site, find an item they want, whisper the guy but first go on the General Discussions looking for the guy's name to check if he's legit?

I hope you understand how ridiculous this notion is. The rules are there for a legitimate reason. They are protecting you and as evident from you getting scammed, perhaps you above others should be thankful for these rules.

Xav is right, and this is hardly a new policy put in place yesterday.

GGG doesn't want people starting witch hunts in the forums, because even if the person is later proven innocent it'll be too late to stop dozens or hundreds of people from adding that account to their ignore lists in-game.

The damage will have been done already.

And you somehow (deliberately?) misremembered the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the bit you quoted from the 11th article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

It's NOT "innocent until proven guilty."

It's "innocent until proven guilty IN A COURT OF LAW."

Forums and youtube videos are not a court of law, they're part of the ironically-named "court of public opinion" often used to bully and blacklist people merely accused of wrongdoing before the truth of the matter has a chance to be determined.

For very, very good reasons GGG has repeatedly and consistently stated that they will not allow or tolerate this behavior on their forums. It's genuinely surprising to me that you escaped from this without being put on forum probation, so you should probably count your blessings and drop the matter before your childish whining makes GGG regret their leniency.

I tried to explain to you why this works the way it does in General, but you didn't listen.

There are dozens of ways to exploit the forums if they allowed what you want them to. The main thing GGG wants is to be left out of it. They've decided the rules of the forum so that they can't be used as an unwitting part of any scam. You need to just accept that, or move on.